Trigger warning: Germain Greer's opinion on rape...

[LokiBear]

I can't actually get my head around this. How can a woman think like this? I have two daughters and comments like hers frighten me. I teach consent to 15 year olds and this goes against everything I try to teach them. I just dont get how anyone can think like this.

news.sky.com/story/germaine-greer-says-most-rape-is-bad-sex-not-violent-crime-11390855

The fact that it is so hard to get a rape conviction, particularly in those circumstances, minimises rape. Because you end up with no consequences for it. It's basically not rape at all, to far too many people. That's where the "just bad sex" comes in.

multifacetted

Be specific. What does that mean? Does it mean sometimes calling it rape and sometimes not?

You don't have to view women as "ruined" in order for rape to be recognised as a violent crime and rapists to be punished accordingly.

Are you genuinely defending someone who wants rapists to do a bit of litter-picking as a punishment so long as they don't commit GBH as well? Can you not see how ridiculous that is?

Who says women are 'ruined' by rape? This isn't the 19th century. No! You have to be joking there!

Ched Evans, Irish rugby....

CuriousaboutSamphire

There is a problem in the sense that some people - misogynists - regard women as being ruined by rape. That doesn't mean they are. We need to challenge that narrative, not endorse it by downgrading the crime!

You don't have to view women as "ruined" in order for rape to be recognised as a violent crime and rapists to be punished accordingly. That is the point Greer and I have been making.

A violent crime shoudl be punished. And fuck off with the litter picking shite! You know that isn't what was said.

Tattooed with an R... marked for life. Stigmatised forever. She was being far more punitive than is currently the case!

My first thought when I read what she’d said was that it makes sense to me. It makes sense that I know of women who weren’t even sure whether what had happened to them was actually rape. I think there’s still an idea of rape being a violent attack that a woman physically fights against, which isn’t necessarily true. Some women don’t fight and then aren’t sure whether they’ve been raped. You don’t have to have a knife held to your throat and suffer physical injuries to have been raped.

We need to challenge that narrative and what do you think Greer is doing with her incendiary speeches, tweets and new book?

not endorse it by downgrading the crime! see my previous comments.

CuriousaboutSamphire

Not challenging it. She is suggesting circumventing it by making rape a less serious crime. That is a form of victim-blaming.

CuriousaboutSamphire

And please do answer what you mean by 'multifaceted' - there's a word to cover a host of sins!

In your opinion, not in mine.

Hopefully there will be lots of people having versions of this discussions.

Then, maybe, the law will be revised and we can start prosecuting more rapists more successfully! Then it won't matter what Greer did or dd not mean, she will have been the catalyst for change, again!

CuriousaboutSamphire

Revised to what, though? Which rapes shouldn't be rapes, and why?

By making (all) rape a crime which is far more likely to be punished. So that the number of rapes decreases. Which has to be the ultimate goal.

I once had a brief run in on here with a poster who, with the very best of misguided intention, stated that "obviously" any woman who'd been raped would be devastated and traumatised and yadda, yadda, yadda. It is beyond unsulting to essentially accused of not being a good enough victim. That's part of the whole problem. While rape has to be considered to include huge physical trauma and life changing emotional trauma to be successfully prosecutable there is no chance of successful prosecution for the huge number of incidences of rape where that is not a feature. Perhaps Germaine has a point.

Multifacetted? But we have already discussed some of them! Marital rape, conjugal rights, no clear consent, no consent at alll, drunken sex, drugged sex, violent attacks, gang rape, abduction and rape, locking your daughters up in the cellar and having kids wth them...

I ddn't think that was a difficult concept. It boils down to not all rapes are the same.

I was appalled by Germaine Greers comments.

argument that a rape that isnt violent isnt traumatic

That's her point. Not all rape is very violent and traumatic. We frame it as one of the worst things that could ever happen to a woman. I've been technically raped in relationships but it hasn't been traumatic or violent, nor has it broken me. My feelings regarding my rapes matter and are valid. It didn't feel any different to just "bad sex". It didn't feel like a rape because society frames rape as horrific and that's a problem

Which rapes shouldn't be rapes, and why? Not sure how you got that from anything I have said!

Pengggwyn The 'conjugal right' reference really pissed me off too. There has been no such thing in the UK since 1994.

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I think GG has done good and interesting work in the past, some of which I profoundly disagree with, often while I'm reading it. Other things she's written will have me punching the air in agreement - such is life.

I am wary of her new book however (based on excerpts I've read so far) from a triggering effect, as I was repeatedly raped in a relationship many years ago. He didn't use violence, he didn't need to. He had already broken me down and isolated me with emotional and verbal abuse. He ruled me by keeping me in fear - I knew full well that if I resisted the consequences would be dire.

It took me over twenty years to get help, because I too believed the horrific myth that if I hadn't been beaten or dragged down an alley, it wasn't rape.

Some of the soundbites from this interview will be co-opted to bolster rape apologism and are a gift to incels and the like, making the fight for the ordinary woman that much harder. Controversy may get GG airtime and sales, but she must acknowledge that some of her statements can harm women. Not apologise, but acknowledge.

I may not always agree with GG, but I will always defend her right to speak.

@CuriousaboutSamphire You say that "A violent crime shoudl be punished." But Greer is saying that rape isn't always a violent crime and therefore shouldn't always be punished as such.

And no, I don't believe that 200 hours of community service and a tattoo that can be covered counts as a suitable punishment for rape. Nor do I believe that downgrading the seriousness of rape as a crime will lead to more convictions.

As for the Ched Evans / Irish rugby players cases, you have misinterpretation them completely to fit your argument. Those women weren't shamed because they were raped. The people who view them as "ruined" don't believe they were raped, so how could they believe they were ruined by rape?! They were shamed by misogynists who believe they made false accusations.

@Kolo You don’t have to have a knife held to your throat and suffer physical injuries to have been raped.

But that's exactly what Greer is saying. Non-violent rape, for her, isn't as much of a crime. In fact, it's just an "annoyance". What you say directly contradicts her comments.

Nor do I believe that downgrading the seriousness of rape as a crime will lead to more convictions

This is the key thing, for me. I think more convictions, in particular for "bad sex" rape, would lead to a decrease in the frequency of rape. If you don't think changing the way rape is dealt with legally would make that happen, them of course you disagree. I think it might well do, so I think it is worth exploring.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I see. So by "multifaceted" you do in fact mean "some rape is less bad than others".

You're wrong. Rape is rape. Sometimes it's accompanied by GBH. Sometimes by abduction, kidnapping, attempted murder, incest, domestic violence, slavery etc etc. But rape is rape. And it is a violent crime, either way. And the rapist should be punished accordingly.

Otherwise what you're saying is that women who are raped within marriage have less right to be traumatised than those who are raped by a stranger. You're not saying that, are you?

Pretty sure Geemaine Greer knows there are no conjugal rights. Inverted commas needed for an unfortunately still common mindset rather than legal position?

I think more convictions, in particular for "bad sex" rape, would lead to a decrease in the frequency of rape.

I agree. But again, downgrading the seriousness of rape as a crime will not lead to more convictions. In fact I suspect it would lead to less. Why pursue criminal justice for someone who's "only" committed rape within marriage? "He's not even violent. It's not that big of a deal, he'd only get community service. Waste of resources."

Surely you can see that would be the consequence?

But Greer is saying that rape isn't always a violent crime and therefore shouldn't always be punished as such. Sort of. She is pointing out that not all rapes are horrifically violent... that if we can see that this is true we can accept that marital rape is as much of a crime as the Tarantino esque gang bang rapes (see Ched Evans again).

Those women weren't shamed because they were raped. The people who view them as "ruined" don't believe they were raped, so how could they believe they were ruined by rape?! They were shamed by misogynists who believe they made false accusations. Erm, that was my point!

As for the 'annoyance' comment, yes! Isn't that a great way to start a debate! What the fuck did she mean by that? Is she right? Is that ever true? As I said, a catalyst for debate! She has a long track record of saying things to force society to re-evaluate its ideas of women!