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Original poster

Trigger warning: Germain Greer's opinion on rape...

568 replies

LokiBear · 03/06/2018 09:36

I can't actually get my head around this. How can a woman think like this? I have two daughters and comments like hers frighten me. I teach consent to 15 year olds and this goes against everything I try to teach them. I just dont get how anyone can think like this.

news.sky.com/story/germaine-greer-says-most-rape-is-bad-sex-not-violent-crime-11390855

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 08:23

DrinkFeckArseGirls yes, that’s what she’s saying.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 08:25

Pumperthepumper

Please can you stop asking for my solution. This isn't a case of 'either we go with X or you come up with a better idea'. This is a discussion about what she said.

I would like an explanation of which rapes people who agree with her believe should be punished less harshly. I would like someone to explain how that will help with the - very real - problem of proving that they happened.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 08:25

Pumperthepumper

No, it isn't what she is saying. Direct quote above. Anyone who can read can see that she is saying some rapes need to be redefined as bad sex, not the other way around.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 08:36

Please can you stop asking for my solution. This isn't a case of 'either we go with X or you come up with a better idea'. This is a discussion about what she said.

I didn’t say it was. It’s also not a ‘there is no discussion about this because I don’t agree with the word choice’

And I can’t speak for everyone about which rapes should be punished less harshly, I guess all the rapes that are currently considered by society (not by me) not important enough to currently convict the rapist.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 08:38

Pumperthepumper

Please don't speak for everyone, but please do tell me what you believe to be the implications of what she is saying, and what you think yourself. That's what discussion of her 'proposal' looks like - actual discourse around what she might be suggesting, not just repetition of what you think she is trying to achieve.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 08:39

And the conviction rate is low because the threshold for proof is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. How will making the punishment less severe for 'some' (which?) rapes, or calling some (which) rapes something else help with that?

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 08:43

Please don't speak for everyone, but please do tell me what you believe to be the implications of what she is saying, and what you think yourself. That's what discussion of her 'proposal' looks like - actual discourse around what she might be suggesting, not just repetition of what you think she is trying to achieve.

I don’t understand this question. She’s offering suggestions to achieve something. You don’t like those suggestions, because of her word choice. You haven’t said anything about the outcome she’s trying to achieve. I’ve already said my opinion, several times in fact.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 08:45

Pumperthepumper

No, you haven't, at least not as far as I can see.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 08:46

Pumperthepumper

And I don't dislike her suggestions because of her 'word choices'. I dislike her suggestions.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 08:50

pengggwyn here you go, 7:37 this morning:

Plus, I already have discussed it. It sickens me that we can’t just all agree ‘rape is rape’ and have them locked up - but that system isn’t working. So maybe it’s time to try something else.

So you don’t like her suggestions, how do you feel about what she’s trying to achieve?

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 08:53

Pumperthepumper

That answers precisely neither of my two questions to you. Let me try again (since you were the one who said you wanted to refocus the discussion on to her proposal, which you, apparently, support).

  1. Which rapes do you believe should be called something else?
  2. Which rapes do you believe should have a lesser punishment attached to them?
Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 09:07

Both of those questions can be answered by my post here, 8:26

And I can’t speak for everyone about which rapes should be punished less harshly, I guess all the rapes that are currently considered by society (not by me) not important enough to currently convict the rapist.

Now, let me try again: what do you think of what GG is trying to achieve? How do you feel the current conviction rates for rape are? Fair? Not fair?

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 09:11

Pumperthepumper

So let me get this clear. You think any rape where there isn't sufficient evidence to convict the rapist should be recategorised as a new crime and retried under a lesser tarrif?

And I think she is a misogynistic, rambling fool. I don't believe what she is saying makes enough sense to be worth genuine consideration. Obviously I would like to see more convictions where there is sufficient evidence to convict. I would not like to see more convictions without evidence because, as horrible as it when someone gets away with a crime, we have to prove they committed one before we can punish them.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 09:12

So let me get this clear. You think any rape where there isn't sufficient evidence to convict the rapist should be recategorised as a new crime and retried under a lesser tarrif?

I think it’s at least worthy of discussion, yes.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 09:14

And as I said earlier, it’s the chicken/egg scenario of changing society’s view of rape influencing the law or changing the law to reflect society’s view. There has to be a breaking point somewhere in that cycle, and changing society’s view isn’t working.

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 09:15

Pumperthepumper

And you would call that new crime what?

saiye06 · 04/06/2018 09:16

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Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 09:18

saiye06

I am not even slightly trolling anyone. Why do you think it is less serious for someone I know to rape me? What a revolting idea.

saiye06 · 04/06/2018 09:22

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Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 09:23

saiye06

To say your opinion is revolting might insult you, but it remains revolting. And I am not trolling you, unless vehement disagreement is trolling now.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 09:24

I'll discuss this with you if you like. I quite like the idea of reclassifying rape according to how we more commonly think about it. Maybe one tariff for stranger rape and another for acquaintance rape? Or even changing the wording on some crimes to something related to consent?

I think something based on consent is probably best - you know how you get these cretins who think coercion or wearing someone down until they agree to sex is just bad manners? (Can’t remember the male celebrity who said that, but that basic principle) - a punishment for that behaviour, because as GG says, under the current system, those men are walking away scot free.

Pumperthepumper · 04/06/2018 09:26

I am not even slightly trolling anyone. Why do you think it is less serious for someone I know to rape me? What a revolting idea.

Pengggwn, I don’t, and Saiye presumably doesn’t - but you know generally society does. You know how hard it is to get a conviction under that circumstance. Pretending that’s not true isn’t going to add anything here.

nolongersurprised · 04/06/2018 09:28

I wonder how these sentiments would be received if someone other than GG had presented them?

Pengggwn · 04/06/2018 09:32

Pumperthepumper

'Society does' - I don't think you can back a suggestion by saying you don't think something but 'society' obviously does and therefore we should do it and remain credible, to be honest.

I sincerely doubt that most people believe, that if my neighbour was invited round to mine for a cuppa and raped me in my sitting room, that this is less serious than if the man who reads the meter did the same thing. If most people do believe that, they are idiots, and idiots should not be making the laws.

But I suspect 'acquaintance rape' is a term Saiye is using as a nice apron for 'asking for it rape'. You know, those ones where the poor menz weren't sure whether she was consenting because she was naked and led him on, etc. I don't think the actual distinction here is supposed to be whether I have met the rapist before. I think it's meant to be whether, on some level, I 'got myself raped'. And revolting is exactly the right word for that rape-apologetic, fallacious bullshit.

saiye06 · 04/06/2018 09:34

I think something based on consent is probably best - you know how you get these cretins who think coercion or wearing someone down until they agree to sex is just bad manners? (Can’t remember the male celebrity who said that, but that basic principle) - a punishment for that behaviour, because as GG says, under the current system, those men are walking away scot free.

I agree - sexual behavior without full consent or something. "unconsented to sexual activity by someone known to the victim" etc. Part of this is that the word "rapist" conjures up someone hiding in the bushes.

Also, it lowers the stakes for victims too. There may be victims who are not reporting because it's an ex husband or partner and they don't want them to go to prison for 5 years. The option of a lower tariff might encourage people to report in higher numbers.