To think Mumsnet doesn't hate Instagram influencers?

[jamoncrumpets]

And for prominent influencers who I will not name here for fear of them kicking off and getting the thread pulled to even hint that this might be the case is irresponsible on their part?

SO much gets discussed on MN every day. So much gets criticised. Social media influencers are a new and intriguing phenomenon - why wouldn't they be discussed here? For better or worse?

Many people have supported influencers for the way they earn money. That gets ignored. Many have politely criticised and pointed out ways it could be more ethical. This gets ignored. One or two have made comments that are personal or cross the line, these have been pounced on and discussed publicly.

The 'arguments' die down. People stop caring. Then prominent influencers go and start the whole thing up again.

Blaming MN is just lazy and irresponsible.

@myothernamewasfunnier of course you can discuss anything you want. The discussion of tax however is not true to the thread title and impliedly, this thread is for ASA, child monetisation and ethics of both. Hey ho.....you will go off any tangent that reaps criticism and bitching against IG accounts. You go right ahead; knock yourself out!

So we can discuss wherever we like as long as it meets your definition of the scope of the thread title? Gotcha.

@m5slowdown Completely agree that if the brands don't like it, then it will sort itself out behind the scenes i.e. no more gifts for you.

However, I can't get behind this repeated argument of "not your business, you've no vested interest". You're trying to determine what I should and shouldn't have an opinion about. You're saying "butt out of this it's nothing to do with you, your opinion doesn't matter". We don't go through life turning our heads away from everything that doesn't directly impact us, what world would that be if we were only allowed to voice opinion or take an interest in a subject matter if it affected us? I'm sure you don't need that argument extrapolated to see the dark places you could go with it.

I actually do have a vested interest because I'm an Instagram user, I do have a vested interest because I might have bought a product from the brand in the past, I do have a vested interest because I'm a consumer and a social media user and function in a society where I'm advertised to on an almost constant basis every single day. Whether it's an advert on the telly or a low level Instagram influencer, I see it and I have an opinion on it and like many other things I would speak about if it didn't sit right with me, I'm speaking about this.

M5 does have a point though that how is it anyone else's business whether they're paying tax or not?
It's exactly the same with Facebook cake businesses, or people who make glittery wine glasses etc. Yes, they should be declared, but why reserve the utter level of nosiness wanting to know how much they earn, tax businesses etc just for influencers?
It's the same with any self employed person and for them to register. (Which they should do of course, but it's weird how it only stretches to influencers and then the nosiness stops)

@its5oclocksomewhere, do you apply the same exhaustive scrutiny against the brands as well as the influencer? If not, why not? Amazon, Starbucks, Google all convicted of tax fraud, to name a few. Why are we holding the influencer alone, to account?

Nobody queried whether any individuals were paying tax or not, just a discussion about what the rules are around selling on gifts. There is a lot of extrapolation going on by people spoiling for an argument.

Who mentioned tax fraud? 😳. Is there something you need to get off your chest?

Amazon, Starbucks, Google all convicted of tax fraud, to name a few. Why are we holding the influencer alone, to account?

Well that would be because this is a discussion about Instagram influencers. If you want to talk about Amazon, Starbucks and Google start a new thread about global corporations committing tax fraud. Although I'm not sure why you'd want to do that because that would just be between them and HMRC and none of our business right?

Meldrums still plugging Neilson holidays with no tagging. Mrs M has a few stories about kids club right now, saying the Neilson kids club is like no other (how they would know given they only go on Neilson holidays is beyond me) and it's very obviously an advert to me.

For transparency (😄), I'm not responding to m5 or cady any further. Their constant bickering, picking and trying to close the conversation down and derail is just so far beyond annoying now. If only there was a mute button on here.

Nobody queried whether any individuals were paying tax or not, just a discussion about what the rules are around selling on gifts. There is a lot of extrapolation going on by people spoiling for an argument

It's not spoiling for an argument, it's just wondering why on earth people would want to know whether they were paying tax on them?
If people didn't want to know if influencers were paying tax (influencers in general, not specific ones as you imply I'm saying) why has someone linked to the rules around tax?

spongebob - people have different opinions to you. It's not shutting down to question or challenge a point.
You complained people were trying to close the debate down yesterday, wanted people to start talking about a certain aspect as it's not the thread police, and when people did start talking about it like you wanted (albeit OTT ) went all wide eyed and innocent and accused them of talking about it and derailing.
Can't win with you.

Sorry posted too soon that one.....have reported.

🎣

Maybe they are thinking of opening a business offering tax advice to influencers, maybe they want to become an influencer themselves? It doesn't really matter. It was just a question. People are curious about how influencing works. You can't keep telling people what they can and can't ask questions about unless you have a sound basis for finding a question objectionable (telling people they are weird doesn't qualify as a sound basis I'm afraid)

Yes I guess we do want to know that these influencers are paying tax on their businesses.

They will be, they'll set up as self declared for paying tax. Just like any other with self employed income would do whether it be a roofer or a cake maker or whatever. That's their business.

It's no different to the many therad that you see here on MN about the next door neoghbour onbenfeitrs whio's just shown up in a new BMW.
You're right in that respect, it isn't. What has being self employed got to do with could be cheating the system though?
Turning up in a new BMW whilst on benefits might be fraud, might not be.
Do you think the answers on MN to a post saying "my neighbours are on benefits but have got a posh new car I don't think they can afford, do you think they're cheating?" would be "yes, they could well be, let's look at the rules and try and find out how much they earn and report" or more likely to be "how would you know what they do or don't earn and what business is it of yours anyway?"
From previous threads I;ve seen like that the latter answer is usual.

@M5slowdown Have you started that discussion youre threatening to have on IG about MNers? I imagine if there’s a delay it’s because you’re setting up an IG account, being as though you don’t have one.

They will be, they'll set up as self declared for paying tax. Just like any other with self employed income would do whether it be a roofer or a cake maker or whatever. That's their business.

Yes of course that vast majority of self employed people do things all above board and register properly but I also think there are tens of thousands of cake makers etc. running cash in hand businesses that never declare a penny of income to HMRC. They get away with it as an open secret until they show up one day in their fancy new car and suddenly people start speculating about how they can afford that. Oh well she's been running that cake business from her kitchen, must be making a few bob on that now. That's actually the same thing that happens with the IG influencers, there's a tipping point that's been mentioned on here many times. They used to just be a normal mum doing to the school run posting a few outfits and it's all very innocent, next thing you know, she's got 50k followers and a free holiday and suddenly everyone's questioning what happened to her. They weren't the slightest bit interested in the ins and outs when she had 500 followers but now it's a business with free gifts, holidays etc. the scrutiny starts. It's human nature to wonder, to speculate, to scrutinise, we all do it and it's the reason these threads exist and keep continuing.

Just for the record, I'm not saying Instagram influencers are any more likely to dodge HMRC than any other self employed person. I genuinely don't think that's the case. However, the proper declaring of income earned as a business and paying tax is just another aspect of this discussion that I think is interesting to talk about.

For transparency (😄), I'm not responding to m5 or cady any further. Their constant bickering, picking and trying to close the conversation down and derail is just so far beyond annoying now. If only there was a mute button on here.

Yes why aren't Mumsnet stepping
In to stop this? It's spoiling the thread for others who aren't interested in a slanging match.

mrtumblesmum - I'm not wanting a slanging match either. There's some really good discussion going on at times, but it gets spoiled when people just want to personal attack or act all affronted when somebody questions a point or doesn't want to join in with their bitching.

I think from a general brand/reputational perspective too, if they've already been shady about declaring a gift or an advert or whatever else, then it's normal to doubt them in other ways and although I'm not particularly interested in whether they're paying their tax or not, it's human nature to wonder if they're declaring all that they should if they aren't declaring adverts to their followers. Transparency and honesty would actually lead to less of this kind of scrutiny I think.

Exactly, if there's not declaring ads and being transparent then you might be more likely to assume rightly or wrongly that their back of house isn't in order, they're not running it as a business. But if they're above board with their ads and disclosures then it inspires confidence that they're treating this like a proper business. Actually to that point, there are a couple of accounts in the 50 - 100k follower range who are clearly running it as business that still say "Personal Blog" in their bio. I find that misleading.

@myothernamewasfunnier, whilst people are curious, said curiousity dies grant an airomatic entitlement to pry into the tax affairs of influencers. That said, if an influencer is operating as a ltd. company, the accounts are public information. Silw traders under Self Assessment will have private tax returns. Until Parliament introduces legislation to alter this position; curious people have no automatic and legitimate right to sight of accounts belonging to sole traders.

does not grant*