Is democracy just something people pretend to want

[Metoodear]

To wonder if we actually believe in democracy in the West
When we don’t get the results we want we throw our toys out of the pram I think it’s outrageous what’s happening in Italy I am not a fan on the five star and the league however

Two parties have gained the highest votes but the powers that be refuse to allow the process to pass because their Euro sceptic
Wtf
Their is no do overs you can’t just keep voting until you get “right” outcome it’s very tin pot republic
When I told my husband about this he said this
Is it only left leaning views are tolerated if yes and clearly this seems to be the case then why not just be open and stop pretending than anything other than a left leaning dictatorship is tolerated

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/05/29/way-things-going-italy-could-european-union-britain/

Democracy can be horrible.
Democracy was invented by people who didn't see why they should extend franchise to women or to their slaves.
Property rules applied to gain the right to vote in many American states until the late 1800s -- even the Founding Fathers had a lot of doubts about unlimited democracy.

I think what is happening in Italy is undemocratic, but I also heard the 2 far-Right parties had 85 days under the constitution to form a government, and they didn't /couldn't. So the president stepped it. So, it is not unconstitutional.

However, as Farokafis argued, the president's actions and reasons (we can't upset the EU and big banks/businesses) are an own goal, and will simply make more people support Rightist, populist parties.

*stepped in.

afaik, this govt will collapse & new elections will be called, unless the populist parties have change of heart & decide to support it. It's not a coup, more like a stalling tactic (allowed within their democratic process) to see if anyone will compromise.

So are you saying yes the Democracy is only good if everyone gives the correct answer

To me it’s very simple every adult barr those who are in jail gets a vote and the one with the most votes wins

Tin pot republics pick and choose what vote they will validate

“No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

TulipsInAJug

Agreed I think this will back fire badly and will simply look to the Italian people like a soft coup and that yes possibly five star are correct that anyone that doesn’t agree will be dealt with

Yanbu op.

All that will happen is that there will be another election and the two populist parties will be re-elected with an even bigger percentage and will have a mandate to change the constitution. Own goal for the Europhile Mattarella.

mothertruck3r Agreed

If they given them a chance it’s likey they would of fucked up with in the year but now this will play right into their hands

If the eu is so awesome why is everyone trying so hard to keep everyone a prisoner

Cuba is so awesome so why can’t you leave

The problem is that the populist parties are themselves undemocratic, in that they promise all kinds of things that they are impossible to achieve. This shows the fundamental weakness of democracy as a system. In the past, democracy has been relatively successful because the parties have been run by grown ups, and haven't promised too much more than they can actually provide. However, in the past few years we have seen the weakness of the system, and how open it actually is to abuse. Parties with financial backing (aided by certain undemocratic countries) have been offering the moon on a stick, and unfortunately a large part of the electorate are unable/unwilling to look deeper and happily buy into a line fed to them by a media with its own vested interests.
I have no idea what the solution is, democracy is in danger of being swallowed by whoever has the most money and can shout the loudest.

Tulips One far right party and one far left, not 2 far right. They presented a cabinet to the president who refused it because the proposed finance minister is against the Euro.

They presented a cabinet to the president who refused it because the proposed finance minister is against the Euro

That sounds even less democratic than I understood my sole source being today's Today programme

Echoes of Weimar Republic, to be sure.

Populist parties trade on resentment. Opposite of unifying. Their type of voter has only perspective that matters & the rest of us must suck it up.

What do I know? I've been on the losing side in a lot of votes lately. Folk like me are supposed to STFU and the winners get to railroad thru whatever they like, with no attempt to compromise or respect our dissenting view (or the rule of law, hence the judges held up as "Enemies of the People"). This is what democracy means to me, personally. Mob Rule is In Fashion.

Here's a good summary of what's going on in Italy.

Ferdinando Giugliano
‏Verified account
@FerdiGiugliano

1 - There is a lot of confusion over why Italy’s President #Mattarella chose to veto Paolo Savona as finance minister, leading to the collapse of a possible 5 Star-League government. Here’s a short thread explaining what he said last night. #Italy

2 - The main problem was Savona’s explicit support for a ‘Plan B’ to leave the euro - which he did not withdraw before receiving the nomination. This plan had to be secretive, according to a set of slides he co-authored in 2015.

3 - If you are an investor in Italian bonds and you think the finance minister may have a secret plan to leave the euro, what you do? You sell your government bonds, as you fear you will be paid back in a less valuable currency (Lira). This causes a self-fulfilling crisis.

4 - The president didn’t say Italy can never leave the euro. He said that it should do so ‘after an open and deep debate’. In other words, the government should seek a mandate to leave the euro, not sleepwalk out of it.

5 - The issue is that the neither the 5 Star Movement nor the centre-right alliance (which the League was part of) campaigned on an explicit platform to leave the euro. ‘Ital-exit’ wasn’t even on the 5 Star-League coalition agreement.

6 - Mattarella asked for an alternative finance minister who would not cause a self-fulfilling crisis by its very appointment. He/she would have been coherent with the parties’ popular mandate and the coalition agreement. The parties did not provide any name.The govt collapsed.

7 - The lesson I take from yesterday is that Mattarella will not always block attempts to leave the euro. He wants the parties to seek an explicit mandate to return to the Lira. Such is the importance of the decision that Italians have to take it openly.

8 - The trouble is that 5 Star and the League are very unlikely to campaign on an ‘Ital-exit’ platform ahead of the next election. They will campaign on a ‘Europe must reform’ program. So even if they win, we will not have the mandate Mattarella is asking for. What then? (END)

CardinalSin And the floor in your argument is that the populist tell lies and the left are truth

It’s not your choice it’s the people you can’t say have a vote but the elite think you have choosen the wrong guy so let’s vote again until you choose our guy that’s not democracy that’s called Zimbabwe or Russia

It’s the ‘love who you want! Vote for who you want! Freedom for all! Love each other! Positivity’ types who then tell people to fuck off and they’re disgusting cretins for being Tory that get me.
The hypocrisy is real

It wasn't too hard to see this coming. The EU is anti-democratic and just plain doomed.

The new government would not be able to just take Italy out of the eu

This is a clear attempt to subvert democracy if you feel the eu is go fab argue that point

'Europe must reform'. Look where that's getting Emmanuel Macron. Berlin says Nein. Look where it got David Cameron. Out of Downing Street.

Democracy is overrated. One person's ignorance is a powerful as another person's knowledge.

Erdogan, Trump, Duterte, Maduro: populists at war with own judges & justice systems. But hey ho, they were democratically elected so whatever they want must be good (& legal since democracy is more important than laws). Mob Rule is In Fashion.

YetAnotherUser

Democracy is overrated. One person's ignorance is a powerful as another person's knowledge.
nice to see we have people who agree with Isis 🤭😱

100% of Dictators agree with that statement

You (deliberately?) misunderstand Meto. The left is just as capable of being populist as the right. Hence the cult of Corbyn. His problem is that he hasn't got the media backing that the right wing tend to have. He is just as bad as many in promising the impossible.

they were democratically elected so whatever they want must be good (

no but it must stand and not be subverted they way to get the outcome you disire is educate and persuade

Otherwise your no better than mugabee let’s just keep on voting until we get the right outcome