Is democracy just something people pretend to want

[Metoodear]

To wonder if we actually believe in democracy in the West
When we don’t get the results we want we throw our toys out of the pram I think it’s outrageous what’s happening in Italy I am not a fan on the five star and the league however

Two parties have gained the highest votes but the powers that be refuse to allow the process to pass because their Euro sceptic
Wtf
Their is no do overs you can’t just keep voting until you get “right” outcome it’s very tin pot republic
When I told my husband about this he said this
Is it only left leaning views are tolerated if yes and clearly this seems to be the case then why not just be open and stop pretending than anything other than a left leaning dictatorship is tolerated

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/05/29/way-things-going-italy-could-european-union-britain/

If 100 people have the vote

10 people choose not to vote 60 vote for party -1
And -30 people vote for party 2 that’s a majory and can just say well 10 people didn’t vote so the vote is void

But of course this theory only works as so far as a government is installed to their linking then it’s just a valid

Shut? The typos oh lord the typos

Wow hoisted on my petard

Just because the majority win does not mean they get to do what they want - that is the tyranny of the majority.

Many constitutions and voting systems try and ensure minority rights are important and looked after.

A well balanced democracy is not winner takes all.

I probably didn’t explain myself well. What I meant was that if you voted Tory, does the government ACTUALLY represent your views day to day and make decisions based on that? Or do they just take your vote as a mandate to do what THEY feel is in keeping with the spirit of the party?

In a representative democracy like ours you vote for an individual NOT a party. That individual votes according to their conscience and beliefs. In the U.K. they usually follow the party line but it is entirely reasonable if they don't.

This is why it is important to consider the candidate and not just the party they are in.

A direct democracy would feature significantly more referenda to directly reflect the views of the electorate.

Democracy is not a one size fits all identikit model it has many variations.

It's "Democracy" when the people make the correct choice (i.e. vote in favour of abortion rights in Ireland) .

It's "Populism" when the people make the incorrect choice (i.e. vote for parties that are Eurosceptic).

Populism is basically the word that neo-liberals use as a slur when any form of vote goes against their ideology, so it can apply to Corbyn, Trump, Brexit etc. Basically anything that has the potential to upset the status quo.

mrbob But my point is it’ seems for some that this line of thinking only applies until the people they want in power win

So for example Corbyn is a popularlist he panders to the tans activists and young promising all sorts that most understand to be I afforded however

I sure if he got in it would all be explained why he’s good for our health and all that was said before doesn’t apply now

You keep suggesting democracy is simple- of course it isn’t... democracy is just the idea and states carry it out in various ways- some have constitutions/some have fptp/some have pr/ some have referendum.

It would’ve more democratic eg to have a second referendum on brexit. Perhaps it would be more democratic to have a weekly referendum on brexit, perhaps more democratic to have let eu citizens vote, to let people 16-18 vote?

Maybe the voters will decide to screw Italy over even more in the next round of elections. Such is the joy of democracy... can always be used to make things worse.

Why do you think the voters have been voting for these two disparate Eurosceptic parties (one left wing, the other right wing but both Eurosceptic)? Precisely because they have already been screwed over and pretty much had two lost decades since Italy joined the Euro. Italy has seen virtually no growth whilst Germany has powered ahead. It has also been forced to accept hundreds of thousands of migrants from a completely different culture and religion which has caused no end of economic and social disruption, whilst the natives and especially the younger population have seen their quality of life decline over the past few decades. It's no wonder they don't look favourably on the EU project.

With regards to the recent referendums on abortion and on Brexit, I was wondering when a vote becomes a landslide.

52% vs 48%

66% vs 24%

One is a very close result - and one is a landslide.

With the referendum on Brexit, I do see a democracy in action as the citizens are using the systems of State such as the Court and the House of Lords to ensure that it's carried out properly and that Parliament - which is where our laws are decided - carries out things properly and the checks and balances are there.

Checks and balances are important in any democracy. An unchecked democracy could have massive repercussions for society.

I presume the OP believes in checks and balances ?

I would guess no.

lijkk Giving every free male Athenian a vote was an improvement on what went before.

In the early USA only free white men of property could vote; an improvement on nobody having the vote.

The struggle to give women the vote here was won in stages. Single women of 21 for Borough councils in 1869 to all women and men of 18 for councils and Parliament in 1970. Every stage an improvement - and in parallel with the widening of the male franchise.

Some think it’s not won yet because it should be 16. Others think prisoners of otherwise eligible should have a (postal!) vote.

So don’t sneer at those who made progress because they did not make more progress.

• if otherwise eligible

Sometimes decomocy us bad would you want someone to step if a givernnent was voted in that wanted to deport all Muslims or worse? Remeber Hitler was voted into power.

Democracy is the least worst option.

Hitler did not win a majority in the 1932 elections and was not voted into power directly. He assumed power because Hindenburg made him chancellor and just before he died put various bits of legislation in which nicked up loads of civil freedoms. Once hitter was in he solidified that, but he was not voted in directly.

worridmum and places where there is no democracy produced people like Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong-un etc who have also killed millions of people. Democracy seems to be the best of the worst. No system is perfect but democracy at least gives a small amount of representation to normal citizens.

People in jail should be able to vote too.

The Americans thoughts blacks to stupid to have the vote
Men thought women to stupid
Australia’s thoughts aboginal to stupid
South Africans Barack’s to stupid
And the gentry thought the working class to stupid

TOO

Hont1986 I agree - if they were registered before they went inside they should be allowed to vote for the ward and constituency where they are registered. If that was sorted when they were sentenced along with all the other paperwork it would not be a major administrative burden for the prison service or the local authority and there are not likely to be enough in any ward or constituency to make a difference to the result.

Democracy is far from perfect.

Referenda should only be used for issues pertaining to personal choice. The Irish referendum on abortion was fine: no one is going to be directly negatively by someone else’s abortion. Referenda to decide massive political issues like leaving the EU are very stupid.

no one is going to be directly negatively by someone else’s abortion
Apart from the foetus, maybe.

Referenda to decide massive political issues like leaving the EU are very stupid
Did you agree with the referendum to take us in?
Why is it stupid for me to have a vote on who rules my life. It's fundamental.

The referendum to take us in did not include any provision to leave - it was a no turning back referendum. Having a referendum to leave the EU is like having a referendum to decide that the UK never took part in the bombing of Iraq. It’s a historically undoable event.

The UK will be forever subject to the rules of the EU.

I can't think of a populist ruling regime that isn't awful. Name one. Go on, I dare you.

Awful? By whose yardstick? Yours, I presume?