Is democracy just something people pretend to want

[Metoodear]

To wonder if we actually believe in democracy in the West
When we don’t get the results we want we throw our toys out of the pram I think it’s outrageous what’s happening in Italy I am not a fan on the five star and the league however

Two parties have gained the highest votes but the powers that be refuse to allow the process to pass because their Euro sceptic
Wtf
Their is no do overs you can’t just keep voting until you get “right” outcome it’s very tin pot republic
When I told my husband about this he said this
Is it only left leaning views are tolerated if yes and clearly this seems to be the case then why not just be open and stop pretending than anything other than a left leaning dictatorship is tolerated

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/05/29/way-things-going-italy-could-european-union-britain/

We didn’t have a referendum to go in. We went in by Act of Parliament in 1972 with effect from 1 January 1973 - the referendum was in 1975 on whether to stay in.

Populist parties can only 'trade on resentment' if the people have something to resent in the first place.(...) I get sick of this idea that people are too stupid to understand. If there is a fault, it's with the politicians. If the argument is so blindingly obvious and true then why are they so unable to convincingly make the point to the populace?

Because nothing is perfect, but a democratic regime is still preferable to populist regimes that trade on fear and hate.
But, yes, most people as a group are too stupid to understand and only realise when the new populist (or any extreme right or left regime) reality is established and is worse (less freedom, worse economy, etc) than the previously hated middle ground democracy.

@RoadToRivendell Wed 30-May-18 10:02:40
I can't think of a populist ruling regime that isn't awful. Name one. Go on, I dare you

Awful? By whose yardstick? Yours, I presume?

Well, name a populist regime and show why it's better than a democratic non-populist regime.

It’s a historically undoable event ... The UK will be forever subject to the rules of the EU.
What a strange statement. Empires come and go. They have since pre-history. Why do you think that the EU will be any different.

Thanks for the correction Andrew. You are right but my sentiment stands - that people only agree with votes that go in their favour!

Going back to the OP, I think part of the problem is that most people don't understand the complexities of democracy or at least what we call liberal democracy.

There was an article in the Guardian on this theme this week, making this point.

Link

Democracy or liberal democracy is just about the majority voting on something no matter the consequences, but the interplay between institutions, rights and responsibilities, the sharing of ideas, discussions based on facts, and so on.

I haven't followed the situation too closely in Italy, but I understand it's more complicated than simply majority rule.

"It's "Populism" when the people make the incorrect choice" is a complete misrepresentation (both of what I said & what populism is). Populism trades on resentment against an imaginary elite. That's what populism is. Populism wants to be divisive and needs to be divisive in order to survive. Populism loves Mob Rule, labelling judges "Enemies of the people".

People like Theresa May or Anne Widdecombe (or Jeff Flake, or GW Bush): I may dislike their political positions & dislike them getting into power, but they all try (tried) to take a unifying leadership role in power, and all (to give them credit) will listen respectfully without name calling or casting aspersions to people with other perspectives. Their elections are choices I wish other folk didn't make, but they are far from populists.

Duterte, Erdogan, Maduro, Trump. Populist kakistocracies & kleptocracies. Those are awful. Name a populist govt. that protects rights of minorities and respects rule of law.

I see populism as simple promises to complex issues...
so anyone who genuinely thinks, say democracy is simple/or leaving the eu is simple is a ripe candidate for populism.

As for the ops opener that democratic decisions are wrong if it’s not the left wing view- she clearly don’t know that brexit has transcended party politics and that many people on the right and the left oppose it.

A little more political reading could be useful.

People were absolutely right to see through Project Fear because they understood that it was vested globalist and capitalist interests that were pushing the message - companies and groups that did not have the interests of working people. Trying to frighten people into submission was contemptible. Treating voters with disrespect - and yes, it happened on both sides. People are not stupid. That's why Jeremy Corbyn will never be PM.

It was indeed populism - and genius indeed - to persuade people to join a movement led by hereditary millionaires and have them think they were fighting the elite. and to persuade the elderly and the less educated to chose something which means both they will be less well off and lose many protections and rights (to say nothing of the border issues)
that IS populism done well. But as the op hopefully understands now, democracy isn’t just one vote once, it is a process of many variants...

"Project fear" which turned out to be largely correct!

Ah but This is a universe where Farage, Jacob rees mogg and Johnson are motivated by the interests of the working people...

Project Fear has not turned out to be right. It is far too early to tell. I think people who voted Leave were more far-seeing in many ways than given credit for. Being shackled to the EU institutions is not the path to social stability - Italy being a case in point.

The EuroSkeptics spent 15-25 years doom mongering about EU & EU membership. Made up stories ("straight bananas" & "immigrants hogging all the council houses") plus racist scare-mongering about brown-skinned (especially Turkish) hordes about to flood into UK. Yet only Remain got labeled "Project Fear". I will never understand that. Maybe only explanation is that Leave were more talented at name-calling. Woohoo. The name-callers won.

I understand largely white middle classes think yet again they know what’s best and that democracy of good as long as the proles vote correctly

And that if only we were as educated as them or just knew the truth we would vote accordingly and I even see some of you have taken the time to spell check my post with further demonstrate my point

In pretty much all cases in history it’s the white middle class that have tried to subvert voting for others under the guise that minority’s are unable or to uneducated to grasp the vote and they know better what’s best for us

I wonder if brexit had gone the other way would another referendum be asked for but the same people who want one now

lljkk Yes of course their can be no other explanation can their

Labelling high court judges "Enemies of the people" for interpretting UK constitution to give Parliament sovereignty something I thought Leave wanted this was also name-calling. As well as huge disrespect for rule of law. The populists do seem to excel at name-calling.

Scott Adams Win Bigly book is good read for better understanding populist persuasion. I felt like I was being asked to admire a soiled nappy when I read it, but he's doubtless onto something in his intuitive understanding of how persuasive methods can work well with swing-voters.

I still find it staggering that people try and present brexit as a working class movement.

The statistics don’t show that.

I see populism as simple promises to complex issues...

That's a good definition.

And often the simple promises involve blaming vulnerable groups (immigrants, minorities) or external forces (EU), or demonizing opponents.

82% of people voted for parties which planned to leave the single market and customs union at the last general election - seems a landslide to me.

82% of people voted for parties which planned to leave the single market and customs union at the last general election - seems a landslide to me

I seem to remember Labour had a different view on the single market and customs union to that at the last election.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39933116

Scrap Conservatives' Brexit White Paper and replace with "fresh negotiating priorities" with strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the single market and customs union

From their manifesto

"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first"

82% of people voted for parties which planned to leave the single market and customs union at the last general election - seems a landslide to me

So I think more people ended up voting for parties that wanted to retain the benefits of the single market and customs union - (Labour and Lib Dems).

Retain the benefits means leave. The Lib-dems were explicit in staying in, Labour were not. They now want to be in A customs union (not the) and out the single market, which is a change to the manifesto.
No Labour or Conservative MP can legitimately vote against leaving both.

Lweji, on the term 'populism', please watch Lionel shriver - she totally nails it.

What is populism, and what does the term actually mean? - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43301423

Thanks for that link, Tulips, I knew I didn't like Lionel Shriver! Cements it now.

She jumped to the 3rd/last interpretation by Oxford Eng. Dictionary what populism is. OED gave predominant definition "Populism=A person, especially a politician, who strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups. " and then gives an art museum example of this usage, something completely apolitical.

ps: It's a slur on MLK to use his image & call his civil rights movement "populist". MLK called for unity and harmony between folk of different backgrounds, rather than strive to perpetuate divisions & hate between people of different backgrounds.