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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is democracy just something people pretend to want

101 replies

Metoodear · 29/05/2018 20:20

To wonder if we actually believe in democracy in the West
When we don’t get the results we want we throw our toys out of the pram I think it’s outrageous what’s happening in Italy I am not a fan on the five star and the league however

Two parties have gained the highest votes but the powers that be refuse to allow the process to pass because their Euro sceptic
Wtf
Their is no do overs you can’t just keep voting until you get “right” outcome it’s very tin pot republic
When I told my husband about this he said this
Is it only left leaning views are tolerated if yes and clearly this seems to be the case then why not just be open and stop pretending than anything other than a left leaning dictatorship is tolerated

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/05/29/way-things-going-italy-could-european-union-britain/

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Metoodear · 29/05/2018 21:52

I am actually shocked people think democracy should only apply in certain cases it’s frightening to think western people think like this least of all women

Gosh it’s like I reading of a extreamist manifesto

democracy is overrated 😱😳

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lljkk · 29/05/2018 21:54

There's some really interesting analysis around about mock democracies, like Zimbabwe, Venezuela or Russia. Good: people get in the habit of voting & they like the idea of the democracy being real, even though (Bad) the democracy is mock, the elections are rigged, minority rights are poorly protected.

The point of having a constitution and balances of powers is to put brakes on potential defects of democratic systems, to prevent abuse of power, too fast change, to protect minorities. Democracy is not sacrosanct good thing, nothing could be.

Metoodear · 29/05/2018 21:57

lljkk So who gets to choose when we get a re vote

Or the electortot is to stupid to know what there doing shall we have people with degrees voting only Confused

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Thesearepearls · 29/05/2018 21:59

Italy is the third largest economy in the Eurozone

The crisis in democracy in Italy is now causing an economic crisis. The proposed finance minister was precipitating all sorts of economic problems

The president did the right and only thing IMHO

lljkk · 29/05/2018 22:02

The constitutional rules decide when votes happen, Metoo. That's what constitutions are for. Sounds like Italy is heading for fresh elections fairly soon.

Metoodear · 29/05/2018 22:03

Thesearepearls Well then why have elections then

What they have done has fuxked Italy it has strengthened the five star vote and scared investors this has been viewed as a coup roundly the markets are going to be fucked the markets are feeling like they are a tin pot republic

Own goal

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Metoodear · 29/05/2018 22:04

lljkk If you view this anything other than a coup you are Neive

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Moussemoose · 29/05/2018 22:06

Democracy is not a free for all. It does mean whoever gets the most votes wins. Democracies have rules and most countries have constitutions that put rules around the democracy.

Within democracies some non elected bodies have power over elected bodies ie the Supreme Court in the US and this is a good thing.

Each country has their own 'flavour' of democracy so you can not apply British norms and expectations to Italy.

Of course we get to have more elections if a government can't be formed under the constitution. If some one in power is going to damage the country then the checks and balances within the constitution may make that person unfit for government - depending on the constitution.

lljkk · 29/05/2018 22:07

Maybe the voters will decide to screw Italy over even more in the next round of elections. Such is the joy of democracy... can always be used to make things worse.

Mattarella was voted into post by the Italian democratic process. He is as much a product of democracy as the populist parties he is now wrestling with. I don't understand why OP is so keen to take sides in this democratic dispute.

NoSuchThingAsAlpha · 29/05/2018 22:17

If the Italian people don't like this decision, they can elect a different President at the next Presidential election. That's how democracy works.

purits · 29/05/2018 22:32

Populist parties trade on resentment.
Populist parties can only 'trade on resentment' if the people have something to resent in the first place. People are saying that the current leaders are not looking out for them and do not represent their views so they want a different bunch in charge. If enough people feel this way then the popularists will get in.
I get sick of this idea that people are too stupid to understand. If there is a fault, it's with the politicians. If the argument is so blindingly obvious and true then why are they so unable to convincingly make the point to the populace?

the rest of us must suck it up.
Now you know what resentful feels like. It's not a happy place to be.

lljkk · 29/05/2018 22:36

I don't choose to be resentful. I'll leave that to those that like populism and who think that hate is the solution. I can do a good line in sad & disappointed if that makes you happy.

Populism does seem to be about spreading unhappiness. And kakistocracy, of course.

Camomila · 29/05/2018 22:38

As an Italian I'm not worried about this particular drama...our governments collapse on a regular basis and somehow things keep ticking on.

I'd say we do like democracy though, voter turnout is always quite high and l know lots of people involved in local politics at the commune level.

purits · 29/05/2018 22:41

Populism does seem to be about spreading unhappiness.
You seem to have your cart and horse the wrong way round.

And kakistocracy, of course.
We are back to the theory that
people who disagree with me = stupid.

TulipsInAJug · 29/05/2018 22:42

Agreed, purits. The notion that the populace are too stupid to understand is lazy, dismissive and elitist. It will only lead to trouble.

Why not try listening to people, rather than putting the interests of big business, banks and financiers first. What annoyed me about the Remain campaign was the lack of awareness that people could see through Project Fear, or didn't care/see it as relevant.

purits · 29/05/2018 22:48

Why not try listening to people, rather than putting the interests of big business, banks and financiers first. What annoyed me about the Remain campaign was the lack of awareness that people could see through Project Fear, or didn't care/see it as relevant.

Absolutely.

lljkk · 29/05/2018 22:49

I can't think of a populist ruling regime that isn't awful. Name one. Go on, I dare you.

I think I like the populist movement for helping me understand how much I prefer competent govt that protects rights of minorities and respects rules of law.

KennDodd · 29/05/2018 22:54

I think you have a very simplistic view. Democracy is complicated.

CardinalSin · 29/05/2018 22:58

"Why not try listening to people, rather than putting the interests of big business, banks and financiers first. What annoyed me about the Remain campaign was the lack of awareness that people could see through Project Fear, or didn't care/see it as relevant."

Unfortunately, although it's not "good form" to say it, "people" generally are not particularly bright, and can not see the full consequences of everything, and are easily lead by people promising snake oil. I'm not suggesting that banks etc. have everybodys best interests at heart, but just listening to people who think that Mrs Brown's Boys is the best comedy of the century is not going to prove to be a good way to run a successful country.

Italy is showing itself lucky to have democratic checks on it's system of government, of the kind that the USA, Russia, et al obviously do not have. Our own House of Lords, despite being not democratically appointed are at least doing a semi-decent job of holding our cowardly House of Commons to account, although I'm not sure it's going to be enough to stop the big business disaster capitalists from getting their way.

It's quite scary that people can say "people could see through Project Fear" when it is proving all to much to be project fact.

kalapattar · 29/05/2018 23:05

As someone who is a Republican and believes in an elected apolitical Head of State, it's been interesting watching what's happening in Italy and the role of the President and the Constitution.

Many sides to the story - and hard to know the truth. But if he believes that the actions of the proposed finance minister were going to be unconstitional, the Head of State has a duty to defend the Constitution.

Metoodear · 30/05/2018 07:04

purits

Populism does seem to be about spreading unhappiness.
You seem to have your cart and horse the wrong way round.

And kakistocracy, of course.
We are back to the theory that
people who disagree with me = stupid.
of course we are this is all people have if you don’t vote my was your a idiot and I am afraid to say it’s usually the left having this attitude

The Americans thoughts blacks to stupid to have the vote

Men thought women to stupid

Australia’s thoughts aboginal to stupid

South Africans Barack’s to stupid

And the gentry thought the working class to stupid

2018 and we’re back to the educated elite think everyone else is to stupid but we know all the above has alalways been one thing to subvert democracy and keep the elite in place

Blessed be the fruit
Now we’re my brown apron back to being a Martha for me and not having a say after all I only a working class black women what would I know Confused

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mrbob · 30/05/2018 07:11

Democracy is a great way of keeping people quiet because they “should” be happy because they got the vote. If things don’t go right then we can blame the people because they got what they voted for. In fact governments are often run by people that most people DIDN’T vote for and make decisions directly in opposition to what even those who voted for them would have wanted (look at the Iraq war) I vote. The people I vote for never get in and my power is over. Yes I could demonstrate but they have never listened to any demonstration I have attended. So in fact I have the right to express my view but not to have it listened to. Maybe I should be grateful that I am not in a dictatorship and at least I can express my view but actually it makes me angry that democracy is presented as the only possible fair way to run a country when in fact it is extremely unfair to most people. They just won’t complain about it because they are under the illusion they hold some sort of say

mrbob · 30/05/2018 07:14

Oh and obviously I don’t expect all my decisions to be the same as everyone else’s- I know democracy goes with the majority vote in theory. I just don’t think they actually DO represent the feelings of the majority of people. Fully accept the whole country can’t be run to my requirements and values ;)

MismatchedStripySocks · 30/05/2018 07:21

Yes. The referendum being a prime example.

Metoodear · 30/05/2018 07:25

I know democracy goes with the majority vote in theory. I just don’t think they actually DO represent the feelings of the majority of people. ConfusedConfused

only when the person you agree with right

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