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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask our British sisters for help?

329 replies

Hideandgo · 25/05/2018 09:35

Repeal the 8th. You may not have a vote today but if you are willing, could you show support for the yes vote for us Irish women on social media? I’m sure many of you have Irish friends and if it encourages just one more person not to forget to vote it would be worth it.

I had a termination when I was 22 and felt deeply shocked and less than human when the Irish nurse told me ‘we don’t do that here’ when I asked about my choices. Luckily I was living abroad (just coincidently at home when I found out) so had one as soon as I got back to the country I was living in but I avoided tying myself to an increasingly abusive man who would have been able to take my baby from me and force me out of the country if he’d wished.

I credit my 4 beautiful children, my kind, supportive husband and my freedom to be the kind of Mum I always wanted to be from that decision.

So many Irish women have a loaded gun to their heads when they find out they are pregnant and it’s wrong to force them to become a Mum. This doesn’t even take into account all the mishandled miscarriages and devastating cases of foetal abnormality. Every woman is vulnerable to a miscarriage that doesn’t resolve immediately and Irish women have been forced to hold on to a dying heartbeat till they themselves have septicaemia and/or PTSD. It’s barbaric and wrong. And makes women feel useless and dehumanised.

Please help us.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Agustarella · 26/05/2018 15:59

"Education and reproductive rights ARE what pull women out of poverty."

No, money is what pulls women out of poverty. It sounds flippant, but it's true. Having BA Oxon after my name didn't prevent me from becoming a single mother on benefits, and aborting or giving away my children would not have made me very much more likely to earn a living wage. Those benefits saved my life and my children's lives. The wider social context is important here: even if we were to suppose abortion were morally neutral in itself, it's not some magic bullet that gets rid of gender and social inequalities.

"That’s the thing about pro lifers, they force that woman to have another child then say no actually, you brought that on yourself there’s no help for them now they are here..."

People who deny help to the poor and blame the victims of structural inequality are bastards. They have no leg to stand on whatsoever.

"Anyway, what’s the alternative for a poor woman in a slum in the third world? "

Someone in that situation has no good alternatives. Let's not advocate putting people in situations as miserable and squalid as can possibly be envisaged, then touting abortion as the solution to their problems. This is not a straw man argument because Britain is trending towards third world levels of inequality, and we do (in theory) exercise a collective choice about what sort of society we want. I hope it will be one that values the children of the poor and combats inequality, but I am not optimistic.

"How can you rationalise forcing a woman to carry a child she does not want to? "

How can you rationalise forcing a woman to abort a child when she does not want to do so, but is effectively economically coerced into aborting? (I'm replying to one unanswerable question with another there - nobody said ethics was easy.)

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/05/2018 16:08

How can you rationalise forcing a woman to abort a child when she does not want to do so, but is effectively economically coerced into aborting? (I'm replying to one unanswerable question with another there - nobody said ethics was easy.)

No woman should be forced to abort a child she wants to keep. If you were then that’s extremely sad. It shouldnt happen. Ever.

But that's not what I asked. I asked why a woman carrying a child she does not want to carry should be forced to keep it.

CopONNotLinkedIn · 26/05/2018 16:12

@MrsTerryPratchett Brew Flowers

I'm glad for Savita's parents, obviously they will wish that Ireland had done this before 2016, but I am glad they feel some comfort.

CopONNotLinkedIn · 26/05/2018 16:16

ps, also, obviously, families of other women who died because of the 8th amendement will feel some comfort. I think Savita became famous because she and her husband were Indian, our shame couldn't be brushed under a big irish rug.

Agustarella · 26/05/2018 16:43

@MrsTerryPratchett "I actually house young women who are poor and have challenges and are pregnant. In my own home. 7 so far. And I am fully and completely in favour of women's right to choose. "

What you do for these women is brilliant. And you're entitled to your views. Actions speak louder than words.

"Talk the talk, walk the walk. I hope all those vile 'pro-life' campaigners do the same."

"Pro-life" is an intellectually dishonest phrase because it implies absurdly that people who disagree with the pro-life movement must have a grudge against life in all its forms, rather than disagreeing on one particular issue. It's better to keep the pro/anti abortion debate frank and on topic: "pro-life" is the politics of the playground. Also, they need better PR: demonstrating outside abortion clinics made them look like terrorists. So I think we can agree that people who self-identify as "pro-life" are likely to be twats. For myself, as someone who is generally anti-abortion but has never campaigned on the issue (or evenly publicly opined on it before this thread) I think the encouragement to walk the walk is a good and sensible one. I have in fact campaigned against austerity and welfare reform and on other issues of children's rights, but it was pretty small stuff and ultimately ineffectual. When I get back to France from the UK, I will be volunteering with Secours Catholique who help poor and migrant families, and seeing what I can do (if anything) to combat welfare reform and strengthen community resilience.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

"OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE most women are not being driven. They don't want the pregnancy. They are not choosing because they 'have to' - they DO NOT WANT to be pregnant. Of course, we need to keep fighting for welfare for all (not just mothers) but stopping access to abortion for women choosing it freely is not a solution."

I would suggest adoption as a humane alternative, although not at all an easy one. It balances the woman's desire not to be a mother with the child's right to life. It's probably the least bad outcome in a horrible situation.

"You allegedly had a pregnancy you wanted and you were allegedly forced to abort. I'm sorry for you, but you need to deal with this and not project your particular situation on the many, many women who are not forced to abort".

No, I didn't actually have an abortion, thank goodness. And it's kind of you to be sorry, but it's fine because it all worked out in the end and many people are in worse situations. Such as schoolgirls who get pregnant and are coerced by their family or school staff into having terminations, ostensibly for their own good, but really in order to sweep an embarrassing mishap under the carpet. I know this is the case in a minority of abortions and I'm glad it's a minority. Regarding autonomous adult women who freely choose to abort, I wish they would not. I'm not in a position to lecture anyone about reproductive responsibility but I believe that adoption is likely to be a better outcome.

Moonkissedlegs · 26/05/2018 16:46

I would suggest adoption as a humane alternative

Who the fuck do you think is going to adopt all those kids?

CopONNotLinkedIn · 26/05/2018 16:49

yes,, ridiculous, as discussed endlessly, a woman who ALREADY has children cannot just merrily adopt a baby without declaring herself an unfit mother to the children she already has.
It's a stupid suggestion, ''just'' go through pregnancy and birth and then give away the baby'' Confused

AngeloMysterioso · 26/05/2018 16:50

I would suggest adoption as a humane alternative

First of all, married couples aren’t allowed to give a child away for adoption in Ireland without admitting that they’re unfit to be parents. Not really an option for all those who already have kids.

Second of all, there is nothing humane about forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy if she is going to have to give if child’s health way at the end of it. These women have friends, families, neighbours, colleagues, very often they already have children. What are they supposed to tell all these people?

AngeloMysterioso · 26/05/2018 16:52

if child’s health way should be the child away

Moonkissedlegs · 26/05/2018 16:55

Yes, in forcing adoption as the 'humane' option, you would be forcing women to go through experiences and medical procedures entirely without her consent. What is humane about that?

Agustarella · 26/05/2018 16:57

@Bowl "No woman should be forced to abort a child she wants to keep. If you were then that’s extremely sad. It shouldnt happen. Ever.

But that's not what I asked. I asked why a woman carrying a child she does not want to carry should be forced to keep it."

That is a very hard question. I think that an unborn child has, in principle, as much of a right to life as you or I do. At the same time it isn't helpful to force unwilling mothers to bring up an unwanted child (this is one reason why adoption is a thing). So it's a question of whose rights trump whose. I would prefer that the law defend the rights of children including the unborn, because they cannot do so themselves. I would argue that an expectant mother has a responsibility towards her unborn child and a duty to consider its best interests; in extreme cases this might include abortion as a kind of mercy killing where the child can have no quality of life, but I believe that killing a healthy foetus merely because it is unwanted is a terrible crime from a moral perspective.

Agustarella · 26/05/2018 16:58

"Yes, in forcing adoption as the 'humane' option, you would be forcing women to go through experiences and medical procedures entirely without her consent. What is humane about that?"

Choosing the lesser evil is humane.

Moonkissedlegs · 26/05/2018 17:01

I think that an unborn child has, in principle, as much of a right to life as you or I do.

But when that life is entirely dependent on a single particular person sustaining it, then if that person isn't consenting to sustain it, then it doesn't have that right to life.

Agustarella · 26/05/2018 17:03

"First of all, married couples aren’t allowed to give a child away for adoption in Ireland without admitting that they’re unfit to be parents. Not really an option for all those who already have kids. "

That is a bad system which will needlessly increase the demand for terminations.

"Second of all, there is nothing humane about forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy if she is going to have to give the child away at the end of it. These women have friends, families, neighbours, colleagues, very often they already have children. What are they supposed to tell all these people?"

So women are supposed to choose abortion over adoption merely to avoid awkward conversations? Very very bad idea.

Moonkissedlegs · 26/05/2018 17:04

Choosing the lesser evil is humane.

If that is the 'lesser evil' case then how do you feel about forced organ donation? Imagine all the lives that could be saved?

Agustarella · 26/05/2018 17:09

"But when that life is entirely dependent on a single particular person sustaining it, then if that person isn't consenting to sustain it, then it doesn't have that right to life."

But the foetus necessarily doesn't consent to being aborted either, so clearly consent cannot be the issue in deciding whose rights trump whose.

Agustarella · 26/05/2018 17:11

"If that is the 'lesser evil' case then how do you feel about forced organ donation? Imagine all the lives that could be saved?"

To evaluate which is the lesser of two evils we need to know what the other one is. I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Either I misunderstand your post or you posted too soon.

Idontbelieveinthemoon · 26/05/2018 17:23

As an adult who went through the adoption process as a child (and ten years in foster care waiting to be adopted) I can categorically state that adoption is not the humane alternative.

Unless you've been the child on Fathers Day, Mothers Day, Easter, Christmas in school when all the others are making their cards and you've nobody to make one for, unless you've been the 7 year old writing letters to Santa every year since you could write asking for a family, not toys, not gifts, just a family, you probably can't imagine what a start to life that really is. Waking up on Christmas Morning each year and knowing that Santa - again - failed to bring the only thing you ever asked for is heartbreak on a level that most people probably won't ever know.

Suffice to say that many adoptees don't survive to live happy, healthy, functional lives. Many adoptions break down. Many adoptees suffer huge mental health issues. Many children who have been adopted end up incarcerated; reports published recently attempt to show how and why, but ultimately, it is absolutely not the most humane way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. To state that it is shows a blinding lack of insight and understanding towards the lives of vulnerable, innocent children who you would potentially condemn to live unhappy lives to appease your "every life is viable" rhetoric. Growing up in foster care isn't living. It is existing. It is going through the motions of a life whilst being in perpetual limbo. Don't think for one second that you can defend 'pro-life' anti-abortion laws by simply saying "give the baby up for adoption" because it's just ridiculous.

Our care system is overrun already with children in need of a family, with babies waiting to be adopted. You ban abortion and over the next five, ten, twenty years, what happens to the hundreds of thousands of additional children who are left without families, without security, without the start in life they deserve? Where would you suggest they go?

Ask anyone who has spent time in foster care. Ask any family who've adopted a child. Ask any adult who was adopted as a child. It is harrowing. Even in the most 'Disney' of circumstances like mine where I ended up adopted by incredible parents who nurtured and loved me enough to fix my broken parts and give me the tools to live a happy 'normal' life, it is harrowing. And most adoptions aren't Disneyfied. Most don't get the happy ever after I got.

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/05/2018 17:29

Thank you @Idontbelieveinthemoon Thanks

Agustarella · 26/05/2018 17:42

@Idon'tbelieveinthemoon I'm so sorry for the experiences you've had. Yes, I do think that adoption is the lesser of two evils when it's successful, i.e. when the baby is adopted quickly by a kind adoptive parent or parents, and it could also be the greater of two evils if the child ended up being kicked around the care system for years getting abused. (Isn't it the case that babies are quite likely to be adopted quickly, unlike older children in care?) If one could know in advance that an unborn child would endure a hellish life then aborting it would be morally defensible, but the problem is how to act given the impossibility of such knowledge. I believe (and it sounds lame after reading your powerful post) that where there's life there's hope, whereas abortion is obviously final and irreversible. If I may ask a tactless question, would you rather you had been aborted and thus never born, or would you rather have led the life you've led, in care and then adopted? Or is this perhaps an irrelevant question, since you seem to regard yourself as more fortunate than most adoptees? I hope I haven't offended you.

Idontbelieveinthemoon · 26/05/2018 18:11

If I may ask a tactless question, would you rather you had been aborted and thus never born, or would you rather have led the life you've led, in care and then adopted? Or is this perhaps an irrelevant question, since you seem to regard yourself as more fortunate than most adoptees? I hope I haven't offended you.

There's no offence or tactlessness in your post at all; we may not agree but I'm more than happy to talk.

In my case I was taken into care at a very young age. My siblings (all thirteen of them) were also taken into care within the first 18/24 months of their lives. We've all led incredibly different lives, we've all had different experiences, different families and different outcomes.

For me, growing up the way I did meant I've never had any roots. I've never felt as though I belonged to or with anyone. I've never had the unquestionable belief that all very young children need - and deserve - that the world revolves around them. I've never been the apple of someone's eye. I've no idea when I walked, when I talked, what I weighed, any details of my first few years of life. I moved house and changed school 7 times in my first 10 years. I experienced sexual and physical abuse in two of those homes, my self esteem when I finally went to live with my adoptive family was nonexistent and, to be quite blunt, had I been adopted elsewhere I suspect I'd probably have taken my own life at some point.

I would never wish my life away. I'm incredibly fortunate to live the privileged life I do. But women like my birth mother who continue to have baby after baby with no ability to nurture or love them, with nothing to offer them but an uncertain future, then yes, they'd be better to have a termination. I'd far rather stand by a woman's side as she chose a termination than stand by a woman's side as she chose to give her child up to a system that cannot guarantee any quality of life for the child.

Three of my siblings have gone down the same path as our birth mother and had ten-plus children of their own. All of them have had frequent social services intervention, all of them struggle. All of their children are in and out of care, are living replicas of our childhoods.

Two other siblings have ended up in prison on and off for their entire adult lives. They simply don't function in society; they've no idea how.

Another one has moved to the absolute ends of the earth to get away.

The last one, and this is the one that hurts my heart most, took his life as a very young teen. He told me when we met once that he'd never felt as though he belonged, that he was never meant to be anywhere. His words resonated because they described with pointed accuracy the feelings I'd had my whole life long.

When you count - from one single family - the damage, hurt and emotional distress and absolute life-changing conditions we all grew up with, and when you factor in that only two of us out of the fourteen have grown up to have 'nice' middle class, happy, normal (as much as possible) lives tasing our own middle-class, happy, normal children, it proves to me that abortion still has it's place in our society.

Newspeak · 26/05/2018 18:28

To all the women (including @Idontbelieveinthemoon) who have spoken of their stories.

We hear you
We see you
We thank you

ThanksThanks

SimonBridges · 26/05/2018 18:32

Oh. And us childless infertile woman are not here to pick up the pieces by adopting children.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/05/2018 19:04

I noticed this in the report on the BBC website 'However, he vowed that No campaigners would continue to protest, "if and when abortion clinics are opened in Ireland". ('He' being John McGuirk). I hope that the powers that be are on the ball and ready to impose safe zones around clinics and hospitals.

GColdtimer · 26/05/2018 19:17

Idon'tbelieve your posts are heartbreaking. 💐

Agustarella I appreciate the fact you are willing to discuss this. I understand how you feel, I have some friends who feel the same way. But they also believe that its not a judgement they should force onother people.

This is my story. I had a termination 20 years ago aged 26. I had been travelling. The father was an Australian I met in Thailand. I was single, back living with my parents, and about to start the job of my dreams. I hadn't been raped, as far as I know their were no abnormalities, and I probably would have had support from my parents when they got over the shock and disappointment.

But here's the thing. I didn't want to be pg (contraception fail), I had no idea where the father was or how to contact him (and I didn't want to have a child without a father). Whilst it was a difficult decision I did not and have not regretted it once. I have 2 lovely dds I may not have had if I'd continued with the pregnancy. I could not have gone through with adoption as I had good friends who had been adopted and knew how it had effected them. And I couldn't have done that to my family, or myself. I couldn't have given away a baby. I just didn't want to be pregnant.

You will think I was wrong, that I'm possible immoral. And you are entitled to that view. But in all honesty I don't much care. So whilst you have every right to oppose abortion on whatever ground you like, you do not have the right to force your view of morality on others. My body. My choice. End of story.

I'm sorry if my story has upset anyone.