To ask our British sisters for help?

[Hideandgo]

Repeal the 8th. You may not have a vote today but if you are willing, could you show support for the yes vote for us Irish women on social media? I’m sure many of you have Irish friends and if it encourages just one more person not to forget to vote it would be worth it.

I had a termination when I was 22 and felt deeply shocked and less than human when the Irish nurse told me ‘we don’t do that here’ when I asked about my choices. Luckily I was living abroad (just coincidently at home when I found out) so had one as soon as I got back to the country I was living in but I avoided tying myself to an increasingly abusive man who would have been able to take my baby from me and force me out of the country if he’d wished.

I credit my 4 beautiful children, my kind, supportive husband and my freedom to be the kind of Mum I always wanted to be from that decision.

So many Irish women have a loaded gun to their heads when they find out they are pregnant and it’s wrong to force them to become a Mum. This doesn’t even take into account all the mishandled miscarriages and devastating cases of foetal abnormality. Every woman is vulnerable to a miscarriage that doesn’t resolve immediately and Irish women have been forced to hold on to a dying heartbeat till they themselves have septicaemia and/or PTSD. It’s barbaric and wrong. And makes women feel useless and dehumanised.

Please help us.

I know, and one thing that exasperated me with the no crowd was this special exception sometimes reluctantly made for women pregnant after a rape. Because that makes it clear they're fine with punishing a woman for having had sex. The foetus of a rapist isn't an inferior foetus. I hope the no crew go away now.

In the UK, apparently one in three women has an abortion. That's a lot of teen rape victims with cancer

Sure, there are hard cases

These two phrases out you as a pro birther. They love to glibly reference 'hard cases' then dismiss them. They also have a tenuous grasp on facts.

I don't usually interfere in Irish politics and haven't in this case. I don't think a bunch of British armchair warriors telling their Irish Facebook contacts how to vote would be terribly helpful

I haven't interfered. I have taken an interest. As I do in draconian laws in countries all over the world.
I don't feel bad for taking an interest and having an opinion. Every other pro birther ranting on twitter and facebook appears to be a man. A man who will never be pregnant and never need an abortion.
If they get a say in it why the hell shouldn't I?

guardian reporting the No vote has conceded! Congratulations to the women of Ireland. Now we have to make sure the Women of Ulster have their rights to their own bodies made legal.

Savita's dad has said he now feels they've got justice for her. I'm so glad the result is giving him some comfort.

Also, contraception prevents pregnancy from occurring, or aims at doing so anyway. It's literally impossible for a person who is already pregnant to be using anything as contraception. If you mean women are less likely to use contraception when they know they can have an abortion instead, say that instead. And then try proving it. You'll struggle...

Have you seen the statement from Save the 8th? Talking about legislation being introduced that will allow babies to be killed in a Ireland. FFS.

Also, I wish these islands would stop having referendums. The results are always shit.

Your recent ones may be very shit, as you can see ours are fucking AWESOME.

Also, I wish these islands would stop having referendums. The results are always shit.

Do what now? These islands?
Are you referring to the, Scottish independence vote and Brexit as well? Only two of those happened in the uk and as an English woman I only got to vote in one, and rightly so.
More over they are completely different to repeal the 8th.

There’s a fb campaign now to help women in NI and I have just writtten to my MP. Let’s all do this if we can.

Let’s hope these forced birthers are drowned out.

I don’t think you can lump the UK and Ireland together like that as “these islands having referendums”.

Referendums play a very different part in Ireland’s democratic system than they do in ours. Ireland has a written constitution and to change it you need to have a referendum. The Irish people know that they will get to decide on constitutional issues. Sometimes the decision is to change the status quo, which means politicians need to have a firm plan about what to do if the vote goes that way. That means that in general, the question is clear, the context is clear, and people make an effort to inform themselves and take it seriously because they know that they are making an important decision.

None of that is applicable in the UK. We don’t have a written constitution, we don’t have a long history of holding referendums, and when we have had them they’ve usually been badly thought through and aimed at making the people feel like they’ve had a say whilst preserving the status quo. That’s why the government typically doesn’t plan for the eventuality of losing a referendum, and the first time it actually happened - on a matter as crucial as leaving the EU, no less - no one had a clue what the fuck to do.

That’s why we’re in such a mess.

The Irish have a very different approach to referendums and they’re better at them than we are.

Delighted to hear that the result appears to be a resounding “Yes.” Hoping that Northern Ireland will soon follow suit (unlikely.) When I was growing up we thought that society over the border was backward in outlook. Oh, how things have changed! Well done to Ireland, today I’m delighted to be Irish.

pauldacre that was a very humbling statement from him. What happened to her was heartbreaking, I do hope the result today does bring her family some comfort knowing that Ireland's collective horror at her needless death was a huge part of the impetus of the campaign. I hope this means no other woman in Ireland has to sacrifice her life to reinforce other people's prejudices.

@LoveInTokyo Fair enough, you obviously know more about the political context than I do. Thanks for the clarification.

@TheFirstMrsDV I wouldn't call myself a 'pro-birther' because I don't know what that is. Probably some feminist jargon designed to smear anyone with non-orthodox views. I'd call myself broadly anti-abortion, because that's what I am (except in cases of foetal abnormality). 'Pro-life' is a silly euphemism associated with the religious right, and I'd want to distance myself from that.

It's odd (for me anyway) that that there seems to be a near unanimous consensus on mumsnet and in the wider media in favour of UK style abortion laws. I would have expected to find more people against it. Especially on AIBU!

Also, I wish these islands would stop having referendums. The results are always shit

Only for misogynistic homophobes...
Marriage equality 2015 🌈
Repeal the 8th 2018 💟

It's odd (for me anyway) that that there seems to be a near unanimous consensus on mumsnet and in the wider media in favour of UK style abortion laws

Well shouldn't that tell you something about those laws?

Pro birther is a far more accurate term than pro life because lets face it the pro lifers care little for the lives of the mothers and babies after they are born.

It interesting that you care less for the rights of disabled fetuses than non disabled ones though.

@TheFirstMrsDV You are twisting what I said. I suppose you are the great defender of disability rights, as you seemingly want to kill disabled and non-disabled foetuses alike? What a great blow for equality.

It's true that religious pro lifers are generally on the right, meaning that they don't support reducing child poverty via cash transfers to poor families. But in Britain our right wing government is not anti abortion and is dismantling the welfare state, and this will disproportionately affect women and children. I expect there will be a significant rise in economically forced abortions here. This is of course chiefly the fault of welfare reform and not of abortion law, but the latter could be seen as enabling the former, if you see what I mean. Be careful what you wish for in Ireland.

how would lack of access to abortion help families who are struggling economically?

A woman can have an abortion for any reason she chooses. That includes the knowledge that x children is manageable financially but x+1 will not be.

The combination of education and effective family planning is the single biggest driver of the rights of women worldwide. Women MUST have reproductive control.

@TheFirstMrsDV You are twisting what I said. I suppose you are the great defender of disability rights, as you seemingly want to kill disabled and non-disabled foetuses alike? What a great blow for equality

I don't want to kill anyone.
I don't think anyone is worth more or less than another.
Unlike people who profess to be anti abortion unless the baby is disabled.

Savita's dad has said he now feels they've got justice for her. I'm so glad the result is giving him some comfort.

RIP Savita.

#forsavita

@ Bowlofbabelfish "how would lack of access to abortion help families who are struggling economically?"

It wouldn't, and driving them to kill their unborn child isn't much of a solution either. More redistribution of wealth would help poor families, not culling the poor as if they were some kind of pest infestation.

"A woman can have an abortion for any reason she chooses. That includes the knowledge that x children is manageable financially but x+1 will not be."

This is right-wing feminism in all its moral ugliness. "Choosing" to kill a foetus because you can't afford a child is like "choosing" to live in a cardboard box because you can't afford to pay rent. It isn't really much of a choice.

I actually house young women who are poor and have challenges and are pregnant. In my own home. 7 so far. And I am fully and completely in favour of women's right to choose.

Talk the talk, walk the walk. I hope all those vile 'pro-life' campaigners do the same.

It wouldn't, and driving them to kill their unborn child isn't much of a solution either

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE most women are not being driven. They don't want the pregnancy. They are not choosing because they 'have to' - they DO NOT WANT to be pregnant. Of course, we need to keep fighting for welfare for all (not just mothers) but stopping access to abortion for women choosing it freely is not a solution.

You allegedly had a pregnancy you wanted and you were allegedly forced to abort. I'm sorry for you, but you need to deal with this and not project your particular situation on the many, many women who are not forced to abort.

augustarella

I have been poor. Very poor. Access to abortion is important for poor women just as it is for women across the social spectrum. Education and reproductive rights ARE what pull women out of poverty.

NO WOMAN should have to carry a baby she doesn’t want to - for any reason at all. The box analogy doesn’t hold - how will another child help ? That’s the thing about pro lifers, they force that woman to have another child then say no actually, you brought that on yourself there’s no help for them now they are here...

Anyway, what’s the alternative for a poor woman in a slum in the third world? Ten kids, none of which she can afford to feed and educate or access to decent contraception and abortion if needed, resulting in two kids she can feed, clothe and educate to pull the family out of poverty?

How can you rationalise forcing a woman to carry a child she does not want to?

There is no justification for forcing a woman to carry on with a pregnancy she does not want. None. Ever. Our bodies, our right.

I’d love it if no more women ever had abortions. That would be simply amazing.
However I am completely pro choice and am so happy about the result in Ireland.

The first time I saw my embryo was as a 5 day old blastocyst.
The second time was as a 6 week scan.
The third time was as an 8 week scan with a heartbeat.
The last time was in a bed pan being taken away by a very caring nurse.

At no point were they a baby.

All the people who talk about unborn children don’t ever seem to show up to help much once a child is born.

Good for you, MrsTerryPratchett. I'm impressed.

My DPs both spent their working lives in the NHS. Both say it's typically the pro-choice people who are most interested in women's general welfare. The forced birthers talk about murdering foetuses but aren't so fussed by the experiences of unwanted children or overloaded mothers.