To think that if you don't want people to use the N word, don't put it in the lyrics of your songs

[PatriarchyPersonified]

Just that really. Kendrick Lamar invited a fan out of the audience at a recent gig to rap along to the lyrics of one of his songs.

The fan (a white lady) repeatedly used the N word, because it's in the lyrics. He stopped her and told her she couldn't say it. She was also booed and abused by the crowd.

🤔

If you don't want people to say a certain word, then don't put it in the lyrics of your songs.

It's either not acceptable, or it's ok. You can't have it both ways.

I personally don't think the N word is an acceptable word to be used full stop, and that doesn't change based on the race of the person using it.

www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44209141

@PatriarchyPersonified because power is something relative. A white homeless person is less likely to be harassed by police, to receive racial abuse from strangers, is more likely to be given money and seen as a 'genuine case' and not a scrounger than a black person. Not to mention that black Londoners are five times more likely to be homeless than white Londoners in the first place.

It works in the same way that homeless women are more vulnerable than homeless men - as well as the shared experience of homelessness, they face specific oppressions because they are women (e.g. lack of access to feminine hygiene products, greater danger of rape etc).

Power isn't a single, solitary thing. Power is a relationship between people. And where two people come to the table exactly the same in all respects except that one is black and one is white, the white person has a greater degree of power in relation to the black person, because the black person is disadvantaged by institutionalised oppressions.

And for the posters that think they shouldn't have to censor themselves, can I ask you why with all the history behind the word you would want to use it?

Are you more interested in pushing your own idea of equality over respecting those from an oppressed group trying to reclaim a word so deeply rooted in one of histories most abominable periods?

I don't like the word so I don't use it. Censoring myself takes no effort.

I cant understand why anyone that wasn't racist or that wasn't trying to reclaim the term would even want to use it!

This thread completely reinforces that there's no point talking to white people about race (with the few exceptions on here @Home2018 @MrsTerryPratchett and @GalwayWayfarer).

So I'm heading out of this thread with a recommendation for everyone to read Reni Eddo-Lodge's book.

Peace out sisters.

It's not about all white people

White people, as a group are more privileged than black people as a group

Those two statements are mutually incompatible.

@Home2018 @VauxhallVectra yessss the pub is going to be marvellous!

@PatriarchyPersonified

If you notice the word 'group' then no, they are not!

And for the posters that think they shouldn't have to censor themselves, can I ask you why with all the history behind the word you would want to use it?

No.

But I don’t like rap music so I would never be in the position where singing along with someone I respected could get me called a racist.

If he uses the terms 'bitches' or 'hoes' in his raps, then he has no moral high ground over the woman.

Where two people come to the table exactly the same in all respects

But surely that's the point Galway. Nobody on earth is 'exactly the same in all respects' as another. Everyone has been privileged or held back in a hundred different ways, for a hundred different reasons.

Arbitrarily choosing race as the defining factor to judge privilege that overules all others is silly.

As a white person, am I member of that 'group' home?

If I am then it applies to all white people and makes the statements mutually exclusive.

"I cant understand why anyone that wasn't racist or that wasn't trying to reclaim the term would even want to use it!"

If I was directly quoting something someone said that included the word I'd use it. If I'm singing along to a song that contains the word I'd use it.

Here is Reni's original blog post which laid the foundation's for her highly acclaimed book.

If anyone is interested in learning rather than defending what really are very ignorant perspectives then take a look.

The term ignorant is not said as an insult. It's said to highlight the reaction of those, like me, that have taken time to educate ourselves on race, when answering ancient and non-educated opinions like most of the answers on this thread.

renieddolodge.co.uk/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race/#comment-442

Whenever I’m rapping along to lyrics that contain the n-word, I just replace thr n-word with ‘nurrr’. The feeling of The lyrics remain intact and any confusion eliminated.

That woman in the video was set up to fail, poor honky.

I'm not claiming that white women, because they are oppressed due to being women, are incapable of being racist - of course white women can be racist (either maliciously and deliberately, or through cluelessness).
I don't know whether this particular white woman is/was thoughtless, young-and-overexcited, or whether she thought that the singer, by inviting her to sing along, had given her a free pass to sing the lyrics as they were written.
I don't know, really, whether the singer just invited a random bundle of people onstage because they seemed to know the words and he thought it would be fun, or whether he wanted to see what the white people would do with the N word - or whether he was hoping for a chance to have a pop at someone for doing so.
I do know that there are a lot of progressive (white) men who love something like this as an opportunity to unleash their misogyny. 'Woke' men often get the right arse when they meet women who don't submit quietly to being lectured about politics, or indeed point out the sexism of the man lecturing them - and these men will then start telling the women to shut up, they have so much 'privilege' they shouldn't complain about anything, ever...

Well, then @thor86, I'd be quite comfortable in calling you a racist.

Overt or not. Willful or not!

And, as comfortable as you are for using what is undisputedly a racist term.

You are clearly more interested in your right to sing a song than you are about offending those for which the term is offensive.

Is it really more important for you to say the word N than it is to allow people the space to reclaim a word that was used to dehumanise their ancestors for centuries, and still is?

What is it that makes you think you have a right to everything?

If an Asian called themselves a P should you use it because they did? The same if a person with a disability called themselves a Spas?

Nobody on earth is 'exactly the same in all respects' as another.

That was an example to illustrate the theoretical way privilege operates. In practice no two people are identical, but classes of people can be identified - men, women, black, white, rich, poor, straight, gay etc. Within these classes there is of course huge variation - but simply saying 'everyone is too different so we can't make statements about race' isn't good enough. If it were true that privilege operates down to such an individual level then there wouldn't be trends like the gender pay gap, like black Londoners being more likely to be homeless than white Londoners, like women being more likely to experience sexual harassment than men. The fact that these trends do exist shows that oppression affects different groups of people in broad and identifiable ways.

Look at it this way. For decades (some) men have made the argument that the pay gap can be explained away by the fact that individual men are just doing better than the individual women they compete with for jobs and pay rises. But we don't accept that because we know that women face barriers and hurdles that men don't face. What is true of gender is also true of race.

Nobody is saying we should arbitrarily choose race and always use that as the metric by which we determine power. But equally, it shouldn't be disregarded! In every situation we have to consider the various power relations that are going on and make a determination about what is right.

Let's go back to your original example of Kendrick Lemar. There are different power relations at play. I don't know anything about the woman, but it's probably safe to assume that KL is wealthier and more famous. He's also a man and she's a woman. So in a few ways he holds privilege over her. And in respect of race, she holds privilege over him. That's why it was wrong of her to use the N word. It would be equally wrong for him to use his forms of privilege against her, but that isn't what happened in this situation.

By rappers using the N word in their songs, they are encouraging the use of that word, it should not be used full stop by anyone whatever race they are. That is the only way to make it unacceptable, you cannot make exceptions.

Therefore that white woman is singing his songs and lyrics, only has himself to blame, he should be taking responsibility for that.

Oh here we go @ReanimatedSGB

We're now moving into that space where we're skipping over the issue so we can blame men, or anyone else, rather than talk about the issue at hand, Racism. We have a full feminist area on Mumsnet. We don't have a race one. Perhaps start a new thread or just don't to that I'm uncomfortable let's change the subject and equally make me victim thing...

I do know that there are a lot of progressive (white) men who love something like this as an opportunity to unleash their misogyny. 'Woke' men often get the right arse when they meet women who don't submit quietly to being lectured about politics, or indeed point out the sexism of the man lecturing them - and these men will then start telling the women to shut up, they have so much 'privilege' they shouldn't complain about anything, ever...

I find the words hoes and bitches used by rappers highly offensive.

GalwayWayfarer - Do you not think there is a possibility that he did 'use his forms of privilege against her'? As you said, he is male, famous and wealthy; she is unknown, female and almost certainly poorer than him. As the performer inviting the audience member onto the stage, I think it's reasonable to say that he, at that moment, had more power over her than she over him.

I think the key question is one we probably won't know the answer to - was he hoping she would use the wrong word so he could publicly humiliate her, was he expecting her to know better, or was he just thinking it would be fun to invite some audience members up on stage?

you are joking aren’t you apart from Americans and or 15 year old boys what black person have you actually ever heard using the n word to describe themselves or anyone else because I am black and I literally never have

I heard post malone the rapper use the word HO the other day he’s is white so can all white men now start calling women HOs and it would be justified ffs

@Aeroflotgirl

I actually agree with your first point on a personal level, but I don't think that I get to dictate what others do, and I certainly don't think that I get the right to use the word just because a black man wants to.

Why would anyone think they had that right and to cause offence to another group if they were not racist themselves?

I'm still struggling to understand why anyone non-black that wasn't racist would want to use it.

"Well, then @thor86, I'd be quite comfortable in calling you a racist."

And you'd be quite wrong to do so.

You can not own a word however. You do not need my permission to use it, I do not need yours. It isn't a word I use much at all, but if I need to quote someone and they used the word I wouldn't censor it.

Aeroflotgirl I find the way in witch the Geordie sore types treat women like meat to offsnsive

But we know black and white sexuality is treated very difreng