To think that if you don't want people to use the N word, don't put it in the lyrics of your songs

[PatriarchyPersonified]

Just that really. Kendrick Lamar invited a fan out of the audience at a recent gig to rap along to the lyrics of one of his songs.

The fan (a white lady) repeatedly used the N word, because it's in the lyrics. He stopped her and told her she couldn't say it. She was also booed and abused by the crowd.

🤔

If you don't want people to say a certain word, then don't put it in the lyrics of your songs.

It's either not acceptable, or it's ok. You can't have it both ways.

I personally don't think the N word is an acceptable word to be used full stop, and that doesn't change based on the race of the person using it.

www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44209141

@ClaryFray

Actually white people are currently being oppressed by a small group of PoC like those who say ALL white people should pay them money to apologize for slavery

LOLZ

I agree OP. Ken is a complete goady fucker and deserves

Actually white people are currently being oppressed by a small group of PoC like those who say ALL white people should pay them money to apologize for slavery.

How are white people oppressed by this OP? What financial opportunities have you lost as a result? What personal freedoms? What tangible effect has this demand had on your life? Has it made the police more likely to arrest you? Has it made an employer more likely to disregard your job application? Let me know.

But you can't have it both ways it's either wrong so artists need to stop producing it in their content or, it's fine. It can't be both ways.

There have been multiple explanations on this thread of why it is different for a white person to use a word historically used by white people to oppress black people than for a black person to use it because it has been reclaimed as a symbol of power against those who oppressed them.

white people are to shut and listen because there opinions are worth less on some topics. That is wrong too.

White people's views on what is racist to POC are worth less than POC's views on the subject - just like we don't prioritise men's opinions on misogyny, abortion and childbirth, or straight people's opinions on homophobia, or able bodied people's opinions on disability. Because we have to listen to the people who experience something in order to understand that experience.

So a white person can't be offended to be called a greydon because it isn't rooted in history? Right hmm both words are wrong and shouldn't be used.

You can be offended at whatever you like but you can't claim equivalence where none exists.

I totally agree they are part of his song. If he find it offensive don't put it there.

@VauxhallVectra

Of course because that's the correct response when confronted with an opinion you don't like. Tell me then is it fair that a small group of PoC are exploiting the horrific history to make financial gains for themselves? Because that happens. Link: m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/reparations-black-americans-slaveryus56c4dfa9e4b08ffac1276bd7

My point is how is saying that someone alive today who never owned a slave has to pay because a relative from the past whom they have never met did something. That's crazy. That'd be like my brother killing someone and me going to prison. I get that there angry and rightly so but there are better ways of dealing with it than demanding payments. But I digress. My point is either it's okay to say or it's not. Can't be both ways unfortunately because people will sing the lyrics as they here them, having the words so freely branded about makes them easily used.

@BartholinsSister

It's a London youth issue currently. Where I work I see it a lot. It's a term to describe white people and can be quite derogatory.

What bothers me with your message GalwayWayfarer is that you put in the same bag all persons of colour, and consider that they all have the same experience of being victimised by white people. As if their experience of racism is the same everywhere (bad whites in power)

This is both wrong and hilariously offensive for many non-white, non-black people.

Totally agree with you OP.

Actually white people are currently being oppressed by a small group of PoC like those who say ALL white people should pay them money to apologize for slavery
Oh please, acknowledge your privilege and get over it, also it's a very small group of people that believe that

@ClaryFray The answer is long, complex, deeply personal and requires a starting perspective that you don't seem open to.

Reni Eddo-Lodge sums it all up beautifully and much more articulately than I ever could in her book "Why I'm no Longer Talking to White People About Race". Ironically, the title of the book perfectly sums up how this thread has made me feel.

Hedging in racism so that prejudice + power is the only possible definition is bollocks I'm afraid, and shows you have a clear bias.

It's not the only possible definition but there is a good argument that it's the only meaningful one.

If your definition of racism is simply prejudice, then you make no distinction between a black person saying 'I think white people are stupid and ugly' and a white person saying 'I think black people are stupid and ugly'.

And you might think that's a good thing and that there shouldn't be a difference. You might be rolling your eyes at me because this is the exact point you're trying to make me understand. You might think that equality means holding everyone to the same standard regardless of the context or consequences.

But context and consequences are everything when we're talking about race. Because a black person saying they think white people are stupid and ugly has no societal implications for white people. It might offend you. It might hurt your feelings. But it won't cause a societal change that leads to your looks constantly being devalued and mocked. It won't make an employer less likely to hire you.

But when white people call black people stupid and ugly, they are reinforcing negative perceptions which have absolutely real consequences for black people alive today. Consequences like black women being told they are unprofessional for wearing their hair in natural styles, like black women being wildly underrepresented in the beauty industry, like black people being passed over for jobs and promotions and pay rises.

And if we're going to change society and eliminate inequality and actually deal with this problem we have to acknowledge that the power dynamic of race at this time is wildly in favour of white people, and that white people having their feelings hurt can in no way compare to systematic and institutionalised oppression of black people. We have to acknowledge that prejudice is bad, but prejudice plus power is devastating in a completely incomparable way.

@OfaFrenchmind2 I actually think this is a totally reasonable thing to point out, and I accept that my posts are very unnuanced - but then this isn't a nuanced discussion and so I am focusing on making broad points. I don't think all experiences of oppression are the same. I'm just using broad brush strokes on an issue that is incredibly complex.

"But when white people call black people stupid and ugly, they are reinforcing negative perceptions which have absolutely real consequences for black people alive today. Consequences like black women being told they are unprofessional for wearing their hair in natural styles, like black women being wildly underrepresented in the beauty industry, like black people being passed over for jobs and promotions and pay rises."

Beautifully put. People like to say "we should treat people EQUALLY" in a pathetic attempt to ignore that equity is of far more use.

The woman (or teenager) was in the wrong. If it was a mistake (unlikely IMO), she should clarify and apologize. If it was intentional, she should educate herself and apologize.

@GalwayWayfarer

I suspect many people on this thread will come back with "Nope, saying someone is ugly and stupid has the same effects no matter what colour the sayer and the sayee are"

Are "sayer" and "sayee" words? They should be

Therein lies the problem that Reni Eddo-Lodge has; some (NOT ALL) white people are just not ready or willing to start from the same perspective as blacks (i.e. accepting that comments do have different consequences for blacks and whites). So, that's why you can't talk to white people about race.

This is such a good debate!

@VauxhallVectra I think that is sadly very true - a lot of people discuss the subject with no intention of trying to listen or understand (I don't mean to me! I mean to POC) but are instead fixated on defending their position. They have the conversation to justify themselves, not to listen to the perspective of another. There's not much you can do against that.

I've bought a copy of WINLTTWPAR, think I might accelerate it up my reading list!

I don't think it is a good argument though Galway

It assumes that white people automatically have power based on their race. It makes enormous assumptions about a person based on nothing other than the colour of their skin. I thought we were getting away from that.

It reminds me of when Munroe Bergdof (a hugely privileged, upper middle class person, who happens to be mixed race and trans) decided to say that a white homeless person has privilege. She is one of the most privileged people in the UK, but because she is mixed race and trans, she wins the 'most oppressed' competition over a person living on the streets...

If she'd said anything derogatory - all of the above may have a point. But she didn't and the words weren't even HER words, they were his.

The real irony of the thread is that people don't see how making a race issue out of something like this devalues actual race issues.

@PatriarchyPersonified I agree that intersectionality is complicated - but it's still a fact that all white people do have power because of their race.

That's not to say that POC might have power in other ways - I agree that a wealthy black person has economic power which a homeless white person doesn't have. And that economic power might (in this case, almost certainly will) mean they have an easier life and greater opportunities.

But that doesn't mean the wealthy black person doesn't still face racial oppression. They still have less privilege than a white person with the same economic privilege. Just like the homeless person has white privilege that a homeless black person doesn't.

Different forms of oppression don't cancel each other out. They are all in play, all the time.

I agree that on an individual basis it's a bad idea to make assumptions about someone on the colour of their skin. Three years ago if anyone had looked at Barack Obama and said he was obviously oppressed because he's black, they'd have looked a bit stupid. But that doesn't mean we can't or should address the very real racial inequalities that still exist in society.

@GalwayWayfarer So glad you've bought it but I think it might be slightly preaching to the choir for you!! But thank you for being an ally- I wish more white people were as informed as you are.

@PatriarchyPersonified
It assumes that white people automatically have power based on their race
They do. In a similar way to how men have power based purely on their sex.
Again, if white can't or won't even be willing to hear that argument then there's no point engaging in the conversation.

He was not unreasonable to use the word in his lyrics.
She was not unreasonable to sing the lyrics he wrote.
He and the crowd were unreasonable to boo her.

You can not own a word.

I'm very willing to hear that argument vauxhall, but you don't mean hearing, you mean agreeing. I can't agree with something when I can think of numerous valid objections.

I don't accept that all white people have power because of their whiteness, it's simply not true. How are you even defining power in order to come to that conclusion?

We can all accept that Men have privilege over women as a group, no?

Why is race different?

As Vauxhall said above, if white can't or won't even be willing to hear that argument then there's no point engaging in the conversation.

Are you listening to whats being said, or are you reading to find somewhere to reinforce your narrow (as a non-POC) perspective?

I also think that this woman was being set up for humiliation. There seems to be, at the moment, a rather disturbing trend of misogyny surfacing in 'progressive' politics, which involves active malevolence towards white women.

I totally agree with this.

@PatriarchyPersonified

I'm very willing to hear that argument vauxhall, but you don't mean hearing, you mean agreeing. I can't agree with something when I can think of numerous valid objections

I mean hearing what POC are telling white people about race and prejudice and accepting that we are telling our truth.

I don't accept that all white people have power because of their whiteness, it's simply not true. How are you even defining power in order to come to that conclusion?

It's not about all white people or some white people in the same way that sexism isn't about all men or some men. It's about systemic power, not individuals having power over some random other individual.

White people, as a group, are more privileged than black people as a group the same way men, as a group, are more privileged than women as a group. There are some blacks who are more powerful than some whites (Obama is more powerful than my white window-cleaner) in the same way that there are some women who have more power than men (the Queen is more powerful than my window-cleaner). We're talking about systemic power and privilege.

My poor window cleaner, he's lovely

@Home2018

You can come to the pub with me and @GalwayWayfarer