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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find dd's "best friend's" behaviour a bit odd?

120 replies

Midge1978 · 11/05/2018 17:23

Dd and her friend are both seven, which I know means they're not going to be socially sophisticated yet but hear me out. Dd says her friend tells her to go away at school and runs away when dd comes near her. On the occasions where they do "play", the friend dominates dd totally not letting her have a turn or awarding herself high scores and dd low scores.

However despite this dd seems fond of her. The friend always asks to come over and play at our house but ignores dd totally while she's here, just asking for food and watching tv. I really don't know why she wants to come so badly!

We invite other children round to try to encourage dd to mix with others and the dynamic is completely different and dd plays happily with them. I also try to reassure dd that it's not her fault when her friend is grumpy all the time but other than that, I'm not sure what else to do! Seems a funny friendship but maybe this is normal?

OP posts:
AjasLipstick · 15/05/2018 19:56

Nike to be fair, I don't think you can rule out any of those behaviours as "not autistic" because people with autism are all different and certainly, could be capable of those things.

nymum · 15/05/2018 19:58

OP you are doing the right thing encouraging other friendships and communicating to DD that her friend’s behaviour isn’t acceptable. She may grow out of it. She may have undiagnosed issues.She may just be a manipulative bully forever. Kids are very accepting at this age. Your DD, with your help, will mature and realise she doesn’t want to accept it. Keep on keeping a close eye and I would suggest (I wouldn’t normally encourage this, but...) you micro-manage any play dates to give friend the message that her behaviour isn’t acceptable and help your DD stand up to her. Friendships change quite a bit at this age and also children become much more socially capable in the next year or two.

SickofPeterRabbit · 15/05/2018 20:00

@Grammy78 Hmm Since when has selfishness, bratty & bossy behaviour been like autism?!

ButterscupsRevenge · 15/05/2018 20:11

Hiya, sorry your DD is having a difficult time :( Do you know the parents well, could you broach this with them or the class teacher? I ask only because my own son has autism and can sometimes react similar in social settings. As a parent of a child with ASD i would be able to work with my sons friends parents to foster a better reletionship between the children if they were having difficulties.

BelieveAnything · 15/05/2018 20:14

Since when has selfishness, bratty & bossy behaviour been like autism?!

Literally everyday on Mumsnet. 😟

mogonfoxnight · 15/05/2018 20:15

Since when has it been ok to slate and label the behaviour as manipulative and shitty of a 7 year old who clearly needs more support herself?

Grammy78 · 15/05/2018 20:19

SickOfPeterRabbit, my daughter is autistic and isn't selfish, bratty or bossy. She does however find it hard to play with her friends as the playground overloads and scares her and she doesn't always understand the rules of games so can sometimes run off as she goes into fight or flight mode. She has delayed social skills so finds it hard to play with her peers and when she manages to, she tends to dominate or try and control them and the game as it helps her to cope with her anxiety. She now has support in the playground and things have got better. Before she had the support, trying to play a game that involved turn taking was very hard as she was in total control mode when she got home from her setting as she was so anxious and overloaded. Family life was very hard.

We haven't got to the stage yet where she can go to a friend's house after school but when she comes home after a day at school, she watches her iPad and eats food - it's her way of regulating herself after a hard day at school. I would not be surprised if she carried on doing that (or wanting to do that) if she did go to a friend's house after school as routine is so important for her.

catkind · 15/05/2018 20:23

We have a child who tries to invite herself over. I tend to smile, say "oh yes let's organise something soon" and invite her as often as DD actually asks to.

You could either say privately to friend or in front of children that the last few times you haven't actually seen much playing together, maybe ask friend for suggestions what her DD likes playing with. And I'd check out what home rules for TV and food are - could be home is strict so she can't self regulate, or home is free for all! Might affect how you want to talk to her about it.

And yes to managing them a bit more. No TV, food at meal time, help them choose an activity to do together. If visitor becomes sulky, offer to call parent to fetch her.

Nikephorus · 15/05/2018 20:24

Since when has it been ok to slate and label the behaviour as manipulative and shitty of a 7 year old who clearly needs more support herself?
Well if it's okay to label such behaviour as autistic I think it's okay to assume a 7 year old can be manipulative (because they can) and shitty (because running away from someone deliberately etc. is shitty).

Didiplanthis · 15/05/2018 20:26

My dd's bff tries to be like this. My dd loves her but is also quite happy to walk away from it and won't be manipulated although is very easy going they are also 7. Bff is learning to behave. Re autism my ds has hf ASD and would never behave like this - there is far too much manipulation of other people's feelings for him to begin to understand how to do it !!

perfectstorm · 15/05/2018 20:38

Ilostit my son is hyper empathetic. He misreads stuff, but is so kind he will do anything and sacrifice anything to make someone else happy. He's also scrupulously polite. And I'm fairly strict about stuff where it isn't the autism at play, so no, I don't think it's an excuse. But the thing is, autism is different in everyone. And the thing also is, a child who acts appallingly is sending a message. Sometimes, that message is that they are lacking proper boundaries and the parents are crap. More often, it's that something is wrong. Could be all manner of things. But it can be autism. And where it is, behaviour is communication. That is so essential. The behaviour is a symptom of a problem, and without identifying the problem you can't help solve the way it manifests.

I think most poor behaviour with ASD can be traced back to either 1) sensory overload - and , and it's very familiar as that is how my son can get, yet we get glares because people think he is misbehaving - or 2), fear and anxiety because the world he has to live in - one set up by, and for, people who are not autistic, is confusing and terrifying. He becomes incredibly controlling when anxious or stressed, when he is the sweetest and gentlest child when he feels safe and secure. I think it's the same way many anorexics and self harmers choose that path because their lives feel out of control; not a cry for help, more a way to feel they can manage their own bodies, at least. And the reality is that for many ASD people that need to control is very logical, because the rest of the world communicates via words that really mean something completely different. I mean, think about Facebook: a friend well into middle age posts a photo at a wedding and everyone exclaims that she is absolutely gorgeous and looks no different to when she was 20. If you're non-autistic, you know what that really means is: I care about you, I recognise you made an effort and look really nice, you are fab. It doesn't literally mean: this person is an age-defying supermodel. But perfectly reasonably many ASD people take it at face value, because their brains are wired to be supremely logical. So they see social lies, which are codes to express support, and see not coded messages we all understand, but actual lies. And they are RIGHT.

Imagine having to live in a foreign culture - really, really foreign, one where waving may mean "fuck off, and your mother is a whore" and where licking your fingers is seen as being the equivalent of picking your nose and eating it, but nobody has ever told you, so you know you can fuck up at any moment and then, still, people won't tell you; they'll just dislike you and think you are a twat. Imagine the anxiety and stress of that, every day. Then imagine you have to share your work with someone, when you are dedicated to it and it's important, on a laptop... and they keep turning it off and losing all your work, because you weren't allowed to back up. (This is how my son experiences being pulled away from his passion, or being expected to work with another child when he is focused rather than teaching them - which he is ace at, and school would ask him to do - he is 9, and in some ways his critical thinking skills are degree level, and his maths A level in pattern recognition and problem solving. School was often quite boring as a result). Then imagine that you struggle to cope with changes of plan, because one of the ways your brain is wired differently is to be able to intensely focus on one thing, to the point you can block everything else out... but changing gears is unbelievably stressful, and that actually bleeds over into absolutely everything, throughout your whole day. Then imagine all this happens while you have music playing so loudly the room vibrates, under lights so bright you could be filming in a studio, with smells so strong you might as well be at a perfume testers conference with chopped onions thrown in. And imagine people keep slapping you (my son's sensory problems mean a light brush against him feels like a slap. As a toddler, he thought other kids were hitting him when they moved past him - playgroup noted this as odd at the time). Then imagine you couldn't sleep very much, or for very long (sleep issues are part of autism). Then imagine that in some ways you are far, far brighter than the people around you, yet they treat you with impatience or patronage, because You Are Impaired, and They Are Normal, so your way of seeing everything is just wrong. Not different: wrong. Then imagine that this is your life.

I think you might find you melted down sometimes. I know I would. And that's not being spoilt. It's being in a world where people make absolutely no allowances for the fact that you literally experience things differently. We expect autistic people to function in a world set up to suit us, and not them. And when they struggle, we label that their failure, and not ours to try to meet their needs halfway. Schools, sadly, do this all the time. Classrooms and lessons are designed specifically to be busy, bustling, creative places in terms that are really, actively, bad for ASD. So kids struggle, and blow up, or try to control their peers in a desperate attempt to cope, and then get punished. And so it goes on.

DS masked so perfectly nobody saw problems at school. But he would come home and explode, and claw his skin to blood, and talk about suicide. Started when he was five. There was talk of medicating for chronic anxiety, because he had mental health problems stemming from his desperate efforts to fit in. He's home educated now, with tutors and forest school groups etc to socialise, and he is fine. Absolutely fine, albeit needing more support than the average kid his age. He's autistic, not mentally ill, but 75% of ASD people have mental health problems due to the ignorance of society... and a lot of that comes, in my view, because people with neurotypical minds are sure it's so much better if you don't label people.

If you don't label, then you don't have to adjust. And that's nifty for people who are not autistic. But my son's experience in school, as opposed to his toddler years, and joy in life now, starkly demonstrates to me, and to a lot of other home ed parents I know, how much of our children's issues stem from the world they have to inhabit.

What scares me now is how I help him learn strategies as he gets older, and how he will learn to manage the seemingly unmanageable. Thanks to Mumsnet, I know a lot of brilliant adult autistics who are managing families, and demanding careers. With a huge amount of extra effort, and no little stress. But they do it. And they are a beacon to me, in knowing that my son can, too. With the right support.

But if the rest of the world shifted just a little, and displayed just a smidgeon of that empathy they say autistic people lack... the lives of autistic people would be infinitely easier. And it would help if people could stop freaking sneering at, "The Label." It's not a fucking label. It's a road map to understanding a different mind.

To a very, very large extent, autism is a different cultural understanding. And I think until people start to recognise that, and try to work with the idea of diversity rather than damage and disorder, we won't really be able to either help support autistic people... or

Final addendum: there's a saying: when you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. My child is not the gold standard of autism, and my experience is necessarily focused on him. So the above is my exceedingly personal understanding, and not objective truth for all time.

perfectstorm · 15/05/2018 20:42

Sorry, this should be: And I'm fairly strict about stuff where it isn't the autism at play, so no, I don't think it's an excuse for behaviour not linked to autism, or some other serious issue. If it's bratty behaviour, it's just bratty behaviour, but I don't think anyone here, including the OP to be honest, is in a position to know that. Not that it matters from her perspective because, quite rightly, she has to be her own child's advocate and supporter.

And sorry, OP - big hijack here! Blush

perfectstorm · 15/05/2018 20:47

Since when has selfishness, bratty & bossy behaviour been like autism?!

Literally everyday on Mumsnet.

This. Titzilla? Autistic. Asshole-in-law? Autistic. School bully? Autistic. Controlling bully of a DH? Autistic. Someone an absolute fucking annoyance? Autistic.

Sure, some autistic people are assholes. That's because some human beings are assholes. Being autistic doesn't make someone an angel. But the notion anyone who is irritating or nasty is autistic makes me want to scream. Exchange 'autistic' with 'black'. Seeing the bigotry now?

That's why MN delete those posts when they crop up: because it's a form of really unpleasant prejudice. Yet for some reason it's not seen as such, and people feel absolutely fine, throwing those sorts of horrible stereotypes around. It's a shame.

ILostItInTheEarlyNineties · 15/05/2018 20:56

Really enlightening Perfect Thank you. Smile

I found your post inspiring and also quite sad really. You're right there is a lot of ignorance in society surrounding autism. I know very little myself.
I hope that the way autism is viewed and accepted changes for the sake of not only your son and others like him but for the benefit of everyone.

Will watch your videos with interest!

boilerhouse2007 · 15/05/2018 20:56

op and other posters i am suprised so many are shocked your dd likes somebody who treats them badly-a classic sign of human behavior when we want acceptance from somebody.

Turnitaroundagain · 15/05/2018 21:11

I had a similar situation with my child and tried everything to make it right, and did everything I could to accommodate this child because I couldn't bear the thought of getting it wrong and then discovering some logical reason for this other child's behavior. I would now conclude that this other child is a narcissist in the making. It was a horrible experience. Be careful.

mogonfoxnight · 15/05/2018 21:12

@nikephorus using "manipulative and shitty" to describe the behaviour of an adult who has responsibility for what they are doing and who should have awareness and insight is quite different from using the same words to describe the behaviour of a child. A child who is behaving in that way is not fully responsible or aware of the consequences of their behaviour, and does not have insight, and does not have full control, and needs an adult to help them, in whatever way they need help.

Using those labels to describe the behaviour of a child implies you think they are fully responsible for the behaviour - you don't think that, do you?

Wallywobbles · 15/05/2018 21:16

Why can't you say. Sorry you were mean last time and people that are mean to my daughter in her own house don't get to come again.

You really need to be having a conversation about what a friend is. It's someone who:
Makes you feel good about yourself
Who is kind to you
Who likes you in school and out of school
Someone who protects you
Etc.

Murane · 15/05/2018 21:25

The friend sounds very bossy and mean, doesn't actually want to play with your DD, just wants food and tv (which is probably why she keeps asking to come over). I'd have a word with DD about healthy friendships and try to discourage friendship with this girl. She certainly would not be coming to my home any more! Even if the girl does have autism, that doesn't mean your DD has to be her friend if it's upsetting her.

babyno5 · 15/05/2018 21:29

perfectstorm I don’t mean when children do genuinely have additional needs I mean the need society has to label kids who just don’t confirm to what is deemed to be “normal” ( and yes I bloody hate that word!). That may be badly behaved or just a child who has never learned social skills. Poor diet can massively affect how children behave but yet we are very quick to believe it could be adhd etc.

teaandtoast · 15/05/2018 21:34

Does dd ever go to the friend's house to play?

Hellsbellscockleshells · 15/05/2018 21:36

Your DD’s fake friend sounds like a little madam in DD’s class she was an only child overly indulged by her mum and grandparents. She was used to playing people off against each other from an early age and like another poster said by year 6 this bad behaviour, manipulating and using people:playing one off against another got worse and worse. Definitely encourage other friendships and interests building her confidence whilst quietly discouraging this friendship.

Aspiesmummy · 15/05/2018 21:55

Before reading the comments I also thought autism, as it sounds very much like my ASD daughter. She didn’t have a diagnosis yet at 7 and I never let her go on play dates as I knew she wouldn’t cope and would display these behaviours - no doubt ending up being discussed on here with everyone jumping on to recommend excluding her!

smallchanceofrain · 15/05/2018 21:58

Sounds very like DS1 at that age. He has a diagnosis of Aspergers/ASC. He had just progressed beyond regarding other children as furniture and would happily do his own thing alongside them, with little or no interaction. When asked however he would talk about his friends and say that he'd been playing with them. He would tell people to go away when he was struggling with sensory overload. Unstructured time, like break and lunchtime, was really stressful for him.

Being the parent of a child with an ASC and watching them struggle is tough. If my DS had a physical disability he would often have been treated with kindness and care rather than contempt. With a hidden condition we often experience a judgemental attitude from others. People either think you're a bad parent or that you have a bad child.

He has learned social skills but it takes a lot repetition of these skills and intellectual effort for him retain that learning and apply it. We were lucky to have a small but supportive group of parents of children in his class who accepted and included him. It helped him so much and now he's a teen he has a wonderful group of friends who love him for who he is. There are still occasions when I come home to find his friends playing one of his computer games while he happily watches a DVD alone. They're all fine with that and when he's had the time out that he needs to help him function he'll join in with whatever they're doing.

You might never know why your DD's friend behaves the way she does but if she's like DS1 I hope she finds the support and understanding she'll need to help her flourish.

Whywhywhywhywhywhywhywhy · 15/05/2018 22:00

The friend sounds like my daughter who is autistic

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