To think funding new grammar and faith schools is a bad idea.

[ConstantlyCold]

Just that really. This will benefit pushy middle classes (like me) but not the kids that really need investing in.

Stupid idea.

Given the appalling lack of special school provision and support this is particularly despicable.

The money is not to increase funding per pupil, it is to increase the number of places available in secondary schools as a whole. Special schools cost far more per pupil than ordinary secondary school places so if the money were diverted to increase the number of special school places there would then be a number of children with no school place at all.

Per pupil funding does need to be increase (IMO) and the support for SEN students needs to be increased (either by increasing the number of special school places available, or increasing support within ordinary secondary schools, or ideally both), but that is unrelated to this current issue.

The number of overall secondary school places has to be increased to accommodate the increase in school population. The government has decided to ring-fence some places for grammars and faith schools rather than increasing the number of places in comprehensive schools.

What is actually needed is more investment in SEN.

My son is bright and autistic and has no behavioural problems and we are finding it nigh on impossible to find him a suitable school. There are very few schools for children who can't cope in mainstream due to the environment are bright but well behaved.

In addition to that mainstream schools are affected by the lack of funding in SEN generally. The principle of 'inclusion' is fine to a point but schools are often faced with having to cope with children with a range of 'needs' within the classroom that are not met. This is not only to the detriment of the SEN child but potentially to everyone else too.

Those that can afford private have their kids in private and wouldn't look twice at grammars.

Definitely not true. If they can save money, they will.

In fact, I think Peter Jones' son went to our local grammar school.

Grammar schools tend to attract children from families that push them hard academically . And hard ! So children from disadvantaged backgrounds won’t get in unles they are literally geniuses

Who will get in are intelligent kids with parents that have the means and resources to get them in . Which also puts aslot of pressure on the kids

Which is why they suck

That said putting that aside we still have the post code issue

It’s shit here

Just to add to tealights comment earlier, it's the same in my area, grammar schools have received less funding than other schools in recent years (I've heard from parents with kids that age), so actually could do with a boost

What is actually needed is more investment in SEN.

That is needed IN ADDITION to the funding required to increase the number of places to allow for the fact that the number of secondary school aged children is about to increase.

If this funding was shifted to more investment per pupil for SEN students there would be a number of children with no school place at all.

This is an interesting thread. As far as I know, the money for extra places is going to be given to existing Grammar schools, provided they come up with proposals to ensure that they admit more poor children - is this right?

If so, this will only affect areas which already have Grammar schools (Kent, Bucks, Essex etc). In any case, even under the old proposal to open new Grammar schools, the only areas that would get them would be those with Tory councils. I can’t see our council (Islington) ever applying for any schools to be Grammar schools.

I went to a comprehensive. It was pretty good and now I think is massively oversubscribed. However, I’m not convinced that it achieved much social mobility. Once we were in year 9, we were put in sets and the top set tended to be full of middle class children who played musical instruments and read newspapers. In effect, we had our own little Grammar school within the school.

Well what’s the alternative offered? At the moment Labour’s position seems to be to carry on with the current position of the standard of your schooling being determined by your parents wealth.

Not true, as I understand it. Essentially their position is that all schools should be capable of delivering high standard education.

My DS starts the well known boys faith secondary school ( in south west London) which obviously free to attend however I was shocked at the prices of uniforms and the added fees to be able to really be involved in any of the activities.
Wasn't also thrown back that he will have to represent his school in at least 2 sports team ( his picked rugby and cricket ) and take 2 musical instruments as well as his usual curriculum.
The Uniform list included a 135 pound blazer and every is school labelled down to the 45 pound jackets and scarfs !

Now we are working class 100 percent.
I do feel like we will struggle to keep him in the school however it was where he really really wanted to go.

“State primary children... Not even given a ladder out of the coal mine.

Blimey. Not sure where to start with that one.

LOL the first school listed in the area I grew up is a grammar.

Thw list for where I am now includes 2 schools I've worked at but not the one I thought would be there.

@sashh top 2% of the population academically. She has an iq of 144

She might have a high IQ but it doesn't mean she is in the top 2% academically.

“I do feel like we will struggle to keep him in the school however it was where he really really wanted to go”

Yep. Backdoor selection. There’s a lot of it about.

The grammar schools gave clever poor kids the same opportunities that the public schools gave to the privileged classes.

Grammar schools; I'm not so fussed about. There's pros and cons and I haven't seen convincing evidence that sways me for or against them.

Faith schools on the other hand are dangerous. AT best they're mono-cultural schools that indoctrinate kids. At worst, they are seeds for religious extremism and anti-science.

“The grammar schools gave clever poor kids the same opportunities that the public schools gave to the privileged classes.”

No they didn’t.

No, schools funding is in absolute crisis. This extra £50 million for grammars is outrageous. It actually disgusts me.

I thought Blackdoor selection was getting in via dishonest routes which he didn't ?

I always thought backdoor selection is claiming you're not selective but putting in huge blocks to people less affluent, ie the hideously expensive uniform.

No. Backdoor selection is a school having hoops to jump through that “less desirable” parents might struggle with. Expensive uniform is a classic. (Not saying you’re an undesirable parent, ihatezoflora- i’m sure you’re lovely!)
Regular church attendance is another.

I'm not anti grammar schools per se but do think selection should be at 13 not 11 and the test based on more than just a couple of exams that can be passed without natural academic ability. We live in a grammar area and I know so many kids who were heavily tutored for years, passed and some will continue to be tutored throughout secondary school because for the parents it's a combination of kudos and a cheaper option than private (that their child would have gone to/stayed beyond yr6 had they failed).

Again faith schools I don't have a problem with if there are adequate number of places at non-faith school of equal standing. Parents finding religion when their child hits Yr 3 then never stepping foot in a church again once they've secured a place is again, commonplace in my neck of the woods.

I say this as a parent with a child at a faith school (pure luck that it was a low intake year for faith applications as we are atheist) and one at a grammar (natural ability and a term of practise papers at home got him through). Dc 3 isn't grammar material might not be so lucky getting a place at the excellent faith school so could potentially end up in a school miles away.

I do agree that maybe a few children going to grammar schools in the 50s and 60s did give a few working class children a bit more of a leg up, but i really cant see how it can these days when its all about the money and the cost of the uniform and the tutors and all the rest of it.

NailsNeedDoing

Amen

You don’t make the weak strong
By making the strong week

And apparently buy the amount to labour MPs and peers who’s children are in private or grammer they agree

Hahahaha ok I am completely out of my depths at the moment we have recenrly relocated to a very middle class area and struggling to work out where on earth im putting the children 😂

I was shocked he got in to the school but I do think they have to take a certain percentage ( correct me if I am wrong ) then they just make it impossible for your to stay once you are in.

Oh and I can’t see how people would favour what we have know which is education by income

Rather than education by ability

Currently you eduction is dependant on how much your parents can afford via mortgage so for example the ortery the house are worth 2million + but it’s a state school so unless your parents are nick clegg you have no chance however my newphew lives in a rented house born to a single mum
And is currently attending his local grammer because he is bright
And her rent is paid for by the council

Church attendance one has been going on for years and years.

lots have always been to church ( fair play to them) many only 'find god' for a few years till they get the places they want, then they are ' too busy;' and some, such as someone i knew, had a dad that was ex church of england priest and he just did a letter to the governers and they got a place, no problem ( was long time ago though) and went Easter and Christmas and the school services now and again. Lots of things go on, its knowing how to play the game!!