To think funding new grammar and faith schools is a bad idea.

[ConstantlyCold]

Just that really. This will benefit pushy middle classes (like me) but not the kids that really need investing in.

Stupid idea.

The majority of actual faith schools tend to be Muslim nowadays. The Jewish and Christian schools are more cultural and seem to just be more akin to a halfway house between private and state.

Faith schools do teach about other faiths as the is part of the English National Curriculum. However the daily act of worship is Christian based as according to the ENC we are a Christian country.

Rosa

I have heard that exact argument made by a fan of Grammar schools. Those exact words. The person in question gave the usual argument about 'maximising talent', then found out I had been to a Grammar school. That's when the real opinion came out because they assumed I was 'on side'

If you select a group of children to go to a 'better' school, then you are also selecting a group to go to a 'worse' one. There is no getting away from that. Educational resources should be spread amongst schools according to their need, not the labels we have put on them.

When people say that Grammars are about class, what they mean is that the vast majority of children who attend Grammars are from middle and upper middle class backgrounds with supportive families who value education. The kids are 'hotboxed' to pass the 11+ so they don't have to attend school with Jack, Alfie and Summer-Rose from the estate next door.

These are kids that would have done well in life anyway, regardless of which school they went to. The additional resources spent on getting them A*'s instead of A's could have have been much better spent getting the aforementioned Jack, Alfie and Summer C's instead of F's.

I didn't go to a grammar school although for those that did it was a massive opportunity to grasp with both hands especially if you didn't come from an affluent background.

I think there should be more grammars, but also more schools that look at training for a trade.

We have used a faith primary school and now the grammar. Not sure if it is different in NI or not. This grammar is usually named the top grammar school every year, if not every other year. It is also a Catholic school and very oversubscribed. We did all we could to help our ds pass the GL (also did aqe) with the aim of getting into this school. I would never entertain the thought of sending my DC to a non Catholic school. The school attaches to our Chapel and we are very involved from baptism right through. They are also very good schools. The Catholic secondary schools esp for boys are very poor. I probably would have home schooled for a year whilst we appealed or tried to go privately although not much choice in NI for that route.
I know full well that grammar schools are out of reach for some children but at the same time I won't deny my children the best education I can get for them just because others can't.

I am a nurse and whilst I was training spent time in one of the biggest housing estates in NI. It was so depressing. So many parents just writing off education, no inclination in them to push their dc or even help with school work as no value seemed to be placed up one education. I remember 1 little girl who asked me all about being a nurse and said she always wanted to be one. Her 'dm' told her to shut the fuck up and don't be so stupid. You had to go to uni for that and she was 'thick as pigs shit'. So where is that child going to end up? My mentor had worked in the estate for over 20yrs. I was so shocked but unfortunately she wasn't. How do you change parents like that? How do you reach them? I really have no idea. I do know if that girl had been born into my family and wanted to be a nurse I would have helped and encouraged her every step of the way. This does highlight to me though how my children are at more of an advantage and have a better chance at grammar school that that little girl. She may well be far more intelligent than my DC but has no one there to push and encourage her.

I totally disagree. So there.

Your basing your entire view grammar supporters on one friends view. You have decided that's why the view of all them.
So now you have one view to counterbalance that view.

I have already destined the two schools both have mix of cohort.. Both have good reputations it's just one may suit dd more.

But to be fair Rosa, you are equally biased towards grammar schools because of your fortunate situation, and are making judgements on the entire system based on that.

a lovely school with good teachers and mostly good pupils

My Welsh comp was like that and I didn't turn out too badly.

It’s not a matter of opinion about selective education being a class thing. Grammar schools are almost entirely populated by middle class kids. That’s just fact.

You've obviously had little experience of faith schools.

On the contrary. I taught in one.

So are many of the most desirable comps and top sets in comps. Is that a class thing?

So are many comps.

Private prep.... Education excellent but also focused on 11+ and independent schools entrance exam usually teacher open to dicuss best course of action for the your child. What schools might best suit their personality as well as academic side. Plenty of help with 11+ and entrance exams. Parents do not need tutors on top. Spoon fed info by school.

State primary... The teacher won't even say if they think your dc would be good candidate for 11+. They won't help, they won't mention it.

Private prep children are put into rocket heading for selection.

State primary children... Not even given a ladder out of the coal mine.

That's the only reason in the imbalance.

Most of the Indians I know prefer selective education full stop. Catholic schools tend to be preferred over grammars by Indians because over there the best selective schools are Catholic & it’s assumed it will be so here too, but it’s often harder for the kids to get into UK Catholic schools so they apply for grammars instead.

No. I'm looking at, drawing on lots of different factors. My own large wider family, immediate family, parents, friends.. My self and my own experiences.

I do appreciate very well that some people are prats.. And have bizarre or unpleasant views. In fact fact I would cast my own pils firmly in the that category but in my life they are the first people I have met who think in such a blinked way.

I agree with patriarchy.

The supporters of GSs are either parents of academic DC or wealthy enough for Plan B to not be the local SM (and they're secondary moderns, not high schools, btw).

Why can't all DC be educated together in intensively streamed schools? Wearing the same uniform, sitting on the same school bus?

I would be more in favour if the government was promising huge funding increases in vocational education as well, but they're not.

This is purely a sop for MC parents so they can pocket that £20k p.a. instead of paying that to private schools.

For the record, I am GS educated ('73-80! 😀) But I saw the educational carnage many SMs caused. With our ever more divided society, the well off and pushy shouldn't be given yet more advantage.

Faith schools? No, they should get no state funding. If you want your child indoctrinated in this way, you should be paying for it.

Those that can afford private have their kids in private and wouldn't look twice at grammars. Private education is out of the range of all but a tiny fraction, not so grammars.

Totally agree with you Tansie

I’m quite extreme though, I’d love to see private schools and grammar schools banned. If their kids had to be educated by the state, politicians might put more effort into funding them well.

Round our way it's very common to have one child in the superselective grammar, and the other in private, having failed to get a place in the former. The local comprehensive schools are simply unthinkable for them; grammar is the thrifty alternative to independent, and their first choice.

I agree Tansie - am surprised by the increase in faith school funding. People whose faith is that important to them that they need it to be part of the school day,and not just for home, should pay for it themselves. That said, I cannot see any reason one needs to be educated in a particular faith environment. Where I live the faith schools are small, cosy and very desirable feeders for local private schools. The non faith schools are bursting at the seams. It is ridiculous. And the grammars are wildly oversubscribed and parents start coaching children for the 11+ at 5. It is little to do with natural ability and all about coaching to try and save the private school fees that are plan B. I do think school choice is a fallacy and the priority should be making every single (secular, non-selective) school brilliant.

Given the appalling lack of special school provision and support this is particularly despicable.
My son was out of school for two years and expected to travel 500 miles a week. Bastard tories.
Grammar school did nothing for me. I went as a very bright kid brimming with potential to a messed up self harmer who dropped out.

Plan B is the local "secondary modern" for DD2. I don't know whether she will yet take, or pass, the Kent test as she isn't as obviously academically advanced as DD1 was, but she is doing well at primary school and is being tutored. I don't really have any concerns about this though as all the local schools are pretty good and she has such a great attitude to school, always trying her best, that I'm sure she do well almost anywhere. I'd quite like her to go to the same grammar as DD1 for convenience, and because I know it is such a good school and DD2, but it might not be the best school for her and will go and look at all schools with an open mind, and will "choose" (with the illusion of choice there is) one with her that will best suit her.

Those that can afford private have their kids in private and wouldn't look twice at grammars.

Not true. A number of my daughter's classmates at grammar school went to a private prep and would have gone to a private secondary school had they not got in the grammar. Those who can afford the fees still prefer the grammar school, if their kids can pass the (more difficult) test to get in.

Grammar schools are almost entirely populated by middle class kids.

So are most good comprehensive schools outside of London. Selection by house price as it is sometimes known.

At our school it's very common to have one child in the superselective and a sibling at one of the three local comprehensives, usually whichever one is most local to the family home. It's much rarer to have siblings at the nearest independents (one of which is really very good).

The problem with grammar schools is that it is insane to pigeonhole children at that age. 11? seriously? Why make ANY life changing even occur at that age?