To ask what ‘leaning in’ means to you and how you feel about it?

[TheTimeToChange]

I’d be interested to find out what you think about ‘leaning in’, as described as Sheryl Sandberg.

I think it’s a good idea, if I’ve understood it correctly. (I think it suggests the idea of someone being proactive and assertive at work in order to get further in their career).

What do you all think?

And how can people ‘lean in’ in practice? I think this is the bit I’m struggling with!

I think it sounds like another wanky corporate catchphrase. Means little.

I don't think anything other than I wish people would just say what they mean.

Why not just call it being proactive?

I think its patronising bollocks tbh. Men dont get told to lean in and dont have to. To me it sounds like pandering to men - "yes thats so interesting do tell me more titter titter". There are better ways to compete with men imo and ime.

Full support for the aim, just not the mechanism.

To me it means saying yes to opportunities even if you don't feel 100% qualified for them

I have no idea what it's supposed to mean but it made me physically lean away from my phone just reading about it. I like personal space...

It is wanky and as a woman I feel dissapoitned that this book is recommened as progressive career furthering reading.

Not only that but the author has also paid for domestic support (childcare and cleaners) so bear that in mind.

For me personally, after being recommended to read the book by my very well thought of manager who herself has gone on to be promoted, I think if you are that way inclined the book will not teach you anything new.

There are better development books to read.

I did like the book by the way!

Oh it's from a self-help book!

Figures.

Self-help writers LOVE to coin catchphrases. They literally invent shit which has already been well known as a "thing" and try to repackage it.

Like baby-led weaning.

It's just called "Giving them a bit of what you're having" where I'm from, yet writers think "Oh I'll just "reinvent" that as a new thing...or a guide...and make a quick buck"

I like it in a way, because I do think women don't push themselves forward enough.

At the same time, it doesn't analyse structural inequality at all. It doesn't take into account WHY women are like that and how they can change. Women have been told, since birth, to sit down, be quiet, don't mess up your nice dress, be careful, don't do that, don't do this.

Even if a woman pushes herself forward constantly, she is still less likely to be successful than a man. That effect is more keenly felt by women from ethnic minority backgrounds, women from poor backgrounds, women with disabilities and so on.

You can't just say to women 'SPEAK UP MORE' and expect that to change everything.

Personally, I don't see HOW women, as a group, can ever be successful in the society we live in. There is too much misogyny and not enough options for women, for example childcare in the workplace, decent maternity/paternity leave. Those are the things that need to change.

I teach high school kids and the difference between the girls and boys is depressing. The boys are so chatty and always putting forward their ideas and always telling me their ambitions. If I ask the girls what they think, they so often shrink away from telling me their opinions. (This is in Asia, so there is a bigger disparity between men and women.) And yet, the boys will complain that women looooove chatting and gossiping.

The lack of self-awareness of how much time and space they take up is astounding.

I liked it - it resonated with me, think yourself capable, don’t put yourself down. It may not resonate with everyone but it resonated with me. I got a message from it, men automatically put themselves forward and sometimes we are too cautious, I know I definitely am/was. It has helped me be stronger in my beliefs & career.

I thought the point here is that women should be fully involved - whether that's literally sitting at the table (instead of being one of the observers round the outside of the room) and speaking up with confidence (not waiting to be invited to speak). What does it matter what she's called it if it helps women to be more visible and audible in the workplace?

mais I'm glad it worked for you and it definitely made me think a lot too.

But I don't think it takes into account how differently men and women are treated. Teaching is a prime example. I am a teacher and a woman. The way male teachers get treated as if they are amazing teachers, just because they're men, is ludicrous. A man does a good lesson - everyone (including him) goes on and on about how amazing he is. A woman does a good lesson - yes, she should do good lesson, that's her job.

Man gets promoted, woman does not.

I see it time and time again, it's depressing.

Yes, part of it is because women don't blow their own horn about how great they are - but when they do, it's all 'she's an arrogant bitch' etc. Men do it and it's just expected.

What was great for me was that we started a Lean In women's support group where I worked. A year later there were three -because some women need that safe space for confidence and skills building in a way that men don't.

I took the message to mean that women have to take responsibility for their careers - and smooth the pathway for women following behind them - to speak up and do things to address issues hampering progression at work

Self justifying classist bullshit.
She won a prize in the big casino and thinks it makes her an expert on winning at the big casino.

I like this quote from some comedian (no idea who he is, just liked the quote).

“I would say don’t take advice from people like me who have gotten very lucky,” Burnham said. “We’re very biased. You know, like Taylor Swift telling you to follow your dreams is like a lottery winner telling you, ‘Liquidize your assets, buy Powerball tickets, it works!' And we’re tall white guys! We overcame nothing to be here,” Burnham said. “There was nothing standing in our way and we barely got here. You have no chance…"

Replace "tall white guys" with "middle class, able-bodied women" and the message is the same.

It sounds like a wanky phrase but I can't help but agree with the idea. How is it patronising? People sometimes try to explain pay disparity between the sexes because men are more proactive and assertive.

Maybe men aren't told to do so because studies show they already do.

On this thread ThisIsTheFirstStep (a teacher and a woman) has noticed that men talk about their achievements eg. an excellent lesson.

On another thread (actually about teaching too) there's a woman complaining because she thinks she's next in line and is annoyed a less experienced man is also applying. He is 'leaning in', surely.

"Women have been told, since birth, to sit down, be quiet, don't mess up your nice dress, be careful, don't do that, don't do this."

I couldn't disagree more.

It’s great. We now have dozens of lean in groups in work, meet once a month, can discuss anything and it’s confidential within the group. You get assigned the meme era at the start so have different levels, non of the members to be your line manager etc. It’s been a real confidence booster for all the women involved, you can vent, share experiences, give encouragement. All of us have had positive outcomes at work beicase of it.
It exists because women are more prone to second guess themselves, or not go for a job unless they’re certain they can do it all well - men tend to go for a position thinking, yeah I could do that or learn about it on the job. Some men get more networking opportunities, after work drinks etc even or the work footie team that women don’t. I for example have to leave and get straight back for the kids, no impromptu post work drinks on a sunny Thursday for me. I have to plan.
My workplace is actively organising lean in stuff, it’s being taken seriuosly, they’re listening to our feedback on changing the culture in the company, women - particularly the younger women - seem to have more of a voice.
I’d say if you have a chance to join a Lean In group or circle then do it. Go to the website and read some of the stuff there, you don’t need to read the whole book.
Have an open mind.
It’s not ‘wanky’ corporate bull to the women who’s work lives it enhancing - you don’t need to want to be a CEO for it to be relevant. It’s about asking for the pay rise, standing your ground, have the confidence to say yes to that opportunity however small. And encouraging the women you work with to do the same when they need it.

It annoyed me in a lot of ways, but Sheryl has since admitted that she has had a lot of feedback that it's all a lot easier when you can afford support like nannies and cleaners, and she hadn't taken enough account of her privilege.

Having said that, I agree the basic message is sound, at least in the context of a large (tech) corporate world, which is what I work in, though quite the other end of the hierarchy. We have Lean-In circles - more than one - and I really like talking to other women there, because most of my work is with men, and most of men don't think that there are any barriers to women or that they could possibly be part of the reason why there aren't more women about in IT. It can be isolating at times, and I think I do have some sort of duty to support other women in the workplace to make sure they don't feel stuck on their own, and to share knowledge about how the company works in terms of progresing and so on. I do ask men who are presenting all-hands meetings what they are doing to improve diversity. Later today, I am meeting with two young women to work on their confidence so when they speak up, people can hear them. And I have women in the business who give me advice when I ask, and support me, and I hope I return that.

And I have been told I'm too assertive, too aggressive, should just accept how (crap) things are, but I am not going to shut up, now I have found a voice, because things can be better. I don't think Sheryl Sandberg's way is the only way, but if she has encouraged more women to speak out and get things changed, then that's good. That doesn't mean you can't also be critical of leaning in.

I've read before that women tend not to apply for jobs unless they feel they meet 95% of the criteria, but men will apply with 50 - 60 %. I saw last night when our boss announced some new roles at work, all the men that it would be a promotion for are talking excitedly about what they could do when they got it, the women are asking - will it mean longer hours, because I've got to pick up the kids?. I'm going to try and encourage 2 women today who I'm sure could do it well to apply, but I know they'll be anxious rather than confident, even though they are better at their current job than the men (same grade) who are all excited at the promotion prospects. I have only heard of 'lean in' vaguely, but the sentiment behind it seems great, even if it comes in a bit of a wanky package!

IIRC she's now admitted how hard it would be to "lean in" since she's become a lone parent.

It’s a mindset and it’s not just about applying for jobs. It doesn’t address structural inequality but why expect one concept to address all the workforce issues relating to women? In my own life , I moved to London with work while planning children- this was continuing to lean in instead of thinking oh no I don’t want to be establishing myself in the London office while pregnant. It was going for a few extra things while pregnant and getting a promotion instead of pulling back to concentrate on my home life. It was refusing internal options at work while part time because I want client facing options. It makes a lot of sense - if you are interested in your work.

I must have completely misunderstood. I thought it was women with children going home at around 5 and then working again when the children were in bed i.e. combining long hours and family life, sort of like the dark side of work-life balance.

"I've read before that women tend not to apply for jobs unless they feel they meet 95% of the criteria"

I wouldn't unless I meet 100% of the criteria. I often don't even get an interview when I do have everything they ask for :(

Self justifying classist bullshit.
She won a prize in the big casino and thinks it makes her an expert on winning at the big casino.
Brilliant!!

Same here. In fact it only recently occurred to me that you could apply for jobs where you only had some of the listed requirements and that is what men are routinely doing. You can. You wont get every interview but you will get some. I was amazed at how little they care once you perform well at the first interview.

I might read it actually. I work in a large very male dominated (military type) organisation. I am working on speaking up in meetings, being confident and assertive. God it’s hard sometimes though and there’s a voice in my head sometimes telling me that I’m just being a annoying woman. It’s hard to have credibility.
It’s hard to have courage to give advice which directly contradicts the very senior and (often) male boss.

I also see how tech knowledge and training seems to part of the gate keeping of power in our organisation. Our tech team is all male, the women do the fluffy stuff. It’s so frustrating.