To ask what ‘leaning in’ means to you and how you feel about it?

[TheTimeToChange]

I’d be interested to find out what you think about ‘leaning in’, as described as Sheryl Sandberg.

I think it’s a good idea, if I’ve understood it correctly. (I think it suggests the idea of someone being proactive and assertive at work in order to get further in their career).

What do you all think?

And how can people ‘lean in’ in practice? I think this is the bit I’m struggling with!

I've done it and earn a fair bit. It works very well for many of us. I suppose it included before marrying checking my husband would be prepared to let my career come first, move cities for my work. It included short maternity leave and always working full time.

I have deliberately done things many women won't - eg getting a 5am car to a radio station to give the r4 interview even though I'd rather be in bed; doing the business trips to Iran, Dubai and lots of other places including as a single mother - it is not that easy finding childcare between 5am and 9am for example. And just getting on with day after day (although I do like law - it is as interesting tody as at university - leaning into it is like being paid to go wild in a sweet shop every day with all the fascinating issues there are to consider and advise on).

I don’t like it as I think it supports the existing idea that careers are not compatible with ‘family life’. The reason lots of women pull back from their careers is tgst a majority of domestic/ caring responsibilities get dumped on them and unless they have wrap around childcare then it’s their careers that get effected. Some women are happy to take on the domestic role and I support that but others don’t.

Things are getting better but as it stands the ability of women to ‘lean in’ as described is severaly limited by our ability to have kids. Until there is equality in domestic care and leave men will always be seen as more of an asset to employers (unfairly). When I got pregnant I got made redundant during my maternity my husband got a promotion and a pay rise. He was seen as worthy of additional pay as a responsible father who would be even more dedicated to work with a baby. I was seen as a liability. I am far more qualified than him and have a much more senior position.

Neither men or women should have to prioritise their job over their family to get ahead. The old office culture is based on a society Where parent is at home and the other works. This doesn’t reflect how we live. Plus the culture of presenteeism egeree didicatio to your job is measured in hours spent at your desk is dated and unnecessary. It needs to change. We need to create s situation where bithe parents can work if they want without severely compromising their work life balance. We have so many advantages now. The internet should set us free from being at our desks but we don’t embrace it.

So I’d tell sheryl to stop buying into this old dated culture and get a grip with what it’s like to be woman with significantly less money and ability to outsource childcare. Then she’d see things differently😢

I am definitely a lean-in woman. I always have been the one to put myself forward (in a non-arrogant way I hope). I don't know what has made me that way inclined and wasn't even really aware that it's unusual.

Blimey. It sounds like people not minding their own business. It brings about more “meetings” and “working-groups” in my experience.

It gives me the rage TBH. It sends the message that women are underrepresented in positions of power because they don't try hard enough. Try harder woman and all will be yours.

In fact this is bollocks of course. Most women work far harder than men because they not only do a job, they do all the load bearing and wife work outside work too.

I'd be far more impressed with a book which said women are bloody marvels and the system should be weighted to reflect their contribution to family life and wider society TBH.

Bollocks management speak. Why can’t people just say what they want to say using actual sentences, rather than pithy little phrases!?

Sandberg has admitted that she totally underestimated the impact of having a very supportive partner (her husband sadly died recently) and that she has reassessed some of her priorities.

I think until we get over presenteeism and men not taking responsibility for their children then the concept of ‘lean in’ is misguided.

laurG - I disagree. The affect it’s had on my workplace is to empower the women to speak up about things like a traditional office culture and about how it doesn’t suit. As a result we have had massive changes, homeworking options for everyone ( which was a huge project because it meant getting them all laptops, phones, upgrading IT so that we can get secure access to all in-house systems) more flexibility, part time offered more for parents - or anyone who asks actually but it’s mostly the parents/caters.
Lean in isn’t some magic pill that’s for sure but with a whole movement of women asking for and getting what they need to work and advance every hi changes. More female managers and decision makers in senior positions will make a difference to company culture. I work in a large 10K plus employees company and things are shifting. They want good people and you don’t get good people by ignoring 50% of the population.
And going in about how it’s easy for Sandberg with her nannies etc is missing the point IMHO she looked at her own company and saw hat the women at all levels weren’t achieving their potential. Not everyone can be at her level, and god knows I would t want to be.

I heard that some men apply for jobs they're only 30% qualified for while some women are hesitant to apply for roles that they are much more qualified for.

We do need to be reminded of our worth more it seems. There's a mentoring system at work where successful women work with women starting their careers. Things like that are part of leaning in and are helpful.

I understood it was about putting work first while you are climbing the pole in you career even if you have a family - so getting childcare in place to enable you to spend more time working and getting on at work. The opposite of the work-life balance lots of women strive for when they have children. Don’t go part-time and ease off, lean in and work harder and you’ll be more likely to get on. Great if you can afford good childcare and you have a supportive partner - less easy if you are a single mother and impossible if you actually want to take a bit of time to spend with your kids.

I thought this was going to be about standing that bit too close to someone you fancy so they get the hit to snog the face off you.

**hint

hitting is not going to lead to kissing.

Goodness you can tell I don’t have any experience in corporate environments because I have never heard it used in the way y’all are talking about before!

To me “leaning in” is usually used either in relational situations, or in situations where you need to do some personal work. It’s about being intentional and sticking at things when they’re hard.

I’ve heard it used, for instance, in situations where someone in the community is in difficulty/grief and people are encouraged to “lean in” with them to support them. I’ve also heard it used about a community being encouraged to “lean in together” to commit to fundraise, or raise awareness, or make a difference in a specific situation in their city/the world. The last example would be where people are encouraged to “lean in” to the hard stuff in their lives - doing the work required to improve their character or in the sense of self-evaluation.

Always used with the idea that you have to really commit and stick at it (whatever “it” is), rather than walking away when it gets hard or uncomfortable.

I’ve heard it mostly used in the US, rather than UK so maybe it’s a cultural thing. It’s not a new phrase to me in any way - certainly one I’ve heard a lot in the last 10 years or more.

Of course it’s not perfect. It’s easier in large companies where management recognise they need to support women. It would be extremely difficult with children without a partner who shares the load, which is a combination of the right guy and being clear about your own worth and role in the relationship - I got married to have a life partner not to iron shirts.
But, it is not just about the decisions made while juggling small children and work. It is about not checking out in myriad small ways BEFORE you have children because you know these senior / additional roles and big projects will be hard later on. It’s about following your passions not thinking that career will be too hard in 6 years when I want children. It’s about not self selecting yourself to NOT succeed.

I'm trying to do it. I'm trying to apply for things where i'm not 100% qualified but just take the male attitude if 'i'll learn on the job'. Because i can do that. I'm saying i want more money, I'm worth it and i'll get it. But i do think people dismiss me as arrogant and aggressive because i'm a woman and being a lone parent is making it 1000x harder!

I don't know about this.

There are plenty of structural analysis books such as Rebecca Asher's 'Shattered: Modern Motherhood and the Illusion of Equality' which are great, but don't really tell you what you personally could do in such an unequal world (apart from not marrying a really sexist person which seems to be advice many on MN haven't taken judging by the constant posts of 'my husband does absolutely no housework, I work f/t, what should I do?')

I like Sheryl Sandberg's book even though it doesn't spend much time on the structural side- she does acknowledge it and doesn't ever claim everyone could 'lean in', but what she's saying is that if the chance is offered to you, there's times to jump forward and not put everyone else and their needs first.

I think that's valuable advice, even advice on women speaking in meetings is important as research shows in academia, if a woman asks the first question in a session, more women then speak at about a 50/50 ratio, but if a man speaks, the session often becomes dominated by older senior men. Being aware of this and putting into place strategies does help (students speak first, ask a woman first).

Sandberg is also aware of the research that says when women put themselves forward they are often perceived more negatively/as aggressive and often have to meet a higher standard (doubly so if you are disabled/ethnic minority group). I don't see her saying to ignore this, more to be aware of this and again, call people to account if you see it happening, which it definitely does at my work (e.g. make promotion criteria transparent).

So many women on MN say things like 'we made the choice what's best for our family, and that's for me to go part-time and move for my husband's job.'. They are right- it might be 'best' at that time, but the outcomes are often much wealthier men with much better pensions and frustrated women who are under-employed. I think the concept of 'leaning in' is a good one because it encourages you to question that as the 'taken for granted' state of play.

I lean in also because I have support (family, supportive husband) to do things I never thought I would do- I also see certain students at work who lean into everything, take up every internship, try out for hard competitive jobs, get experience, talk to everyone. Some have privileged backgrounds but many do not at all and yet still keep putting themselves out there.

I owe a massive debt to the generation above me of female academics who 'leaned in', especially in management/professorial positions. I don't need to deny the structural inequalities of why there are so few in a position to do so to feel grateful for their contribution.

I'm not sure about this actual context but in psychological terms it is used such as' leaning in toward the discomfort' meaning gently moving toward it and acceptance.

Its a way of punishing women for the fact the gender pay gap exists, that you are paid 3x as much for looking after someones boiler or car than their child and all the unpaid work we already do. You're not a success like Sheryl because you didn't 'lean in'. Yeah, that's right.

“I would say don’t take advice from people like me who have gotten very lucky,” Burnham said. “We’re very biased. You know, like Taylor Swift telling you to follow your dreams is like a lottery winner telling you, ‘Liquidize your assets, buy Powerball tickets, it works!' And we’re tall white guys! We overcame nothing to be here,” Burnham said. “There was nothing standing in our way and we barely got here. You have no chance…"

I find this pretty depressing, actually.

The whole point of 'leaning in' (I have very mixed feelings about this phrase, it is at least 50% corporate wankspeak but I suppose it's just shorthand) is that you close yourself off to reasons you might not be successful, and jump in.

The assumption that one might somehow be at a disadvantage is at the very core of the 'gender pay gap'.

I liked her book and did take stuff from it. I found that it made me think and reassess my behaviour in and out of work.

Most men will negotiate their job offer, most women will take the offer if they like it. Since reading that I have noticed that is true at work. It gave me the confidence to ask for a pay rise, something I have always waited for before.

Bossy - how many bossy men do you know. Why do we call our girls bossy when they show leadership skills? I make sure that I never call my daughter bossy now, and praise her when she is planning and organising something.

I do now lean in at work. It is not being aggressive or putting work first, but allowing me to behave in a confident way, speaking more at meetings and getting what I want out of my career. Since being more confident/leaning in I have had a pay rise and work less hours (negotiated to work 4 days on the same salary and benefits), I am valued more at work and have the confidence to say no to things I dont want to do. If I want something I ask, rather than think it will sound grabby or pushy to ask for it, I take the chance.

I maybe have misunderstood it as well. I took it to mean that when things get tough - so when you're back at work but have young DCs and it all seems really hard - that's the time to keep persevering as it will be worth it in the end in terms of increased opportunity and salary.

I think it's a useful message, but I also feel its a bit simplistic as believe that DCs benefit from having parents time - and by that I mean either DM or DF - and we should be trying to move away from this culture of working long hours for everyone, rather than simply encouraging both parents to do just that.

For me I chose to side-line my career when DS was young - and voluntarily took a step back, but still working - and now that he's a bit older and able to get the bus and be a bit more self-sufficient I've ramped it up again and done so gratifyingly quickly . That model has worked really well for me, and whilst I may have lost out on pay increases during that period, at least I've been working and putting money towards my pension.

I guess the wider question would be why did I side-line rather than DH - but in our circumstances it was me that wanted to do it as I don't define myself as much by what I earn (again probably because I'm female) also I simply didn't have the energy to do it all ( along with a health complaint at the time exacerbated by TTC DC2 which didn't happen) at the time.

Finally SS seems to be a real go-getter with loads of energy - we aren't all like that. I have to balance my energy carefully - at work I'm good at what I do, and there's a natural inclination for people to keep piling more on to me and I have to be very careful about the hours I work to ensure that I retain my equilibrium and have enough energy for DS at home. It's taken me a long time to learn what type of person I am - some would say lazy - but I just need to work with what I've got.

Its a way of punishing women for the fact the gender pay gap exists, that you are paid 3x as much for looking after someones boiler or car than their child and all the unpaid work we already do.

Relatively few people know how to service boilers or cars and have the relevant certification, and there's actually shortages of them in most of the country. Go get certified if you like.

Really bad example of 'sexism'.

I found it interesting how, in her book Option B, written after she had been widowed, she admitted that "leaning in" had been completely insensitive and patronising to single parents, especially those who had been widowed.

I think when you are super-rich, you really have no idea about the difficulties of life and you have very little advice of real benefit to ordinary people. You can pay your way out of most difficulties. For me, the endless daily grinding poverty and hardship of bringing up 2 DCs as a widow is harder than the emotional loss.

joffrey that's a really good point. Bringing up two children alone IS 'leaning in', well, leaning into the life you've been given anyway and that type of 'leaning in' really does go unrecognized.

Joffrey

I think I quite like it, for what it is. I mean it certainly does have all the pitfalls that everyone here is mentioning and it certainly does benefit those already privileged the most.

But at the same time it would be a step in the right direction for all women, not just those climbing the greasy pole, if there were more women in boardrooms. More women behind big businesses, behind services, behind investors. That needs to happen.

So if leaning in gets a few privileged women over the line, who might otherwise have been pipped to the post by a man who's socialisation naturally aligns with male dominated employment structures, then I think I'm pleased about that.