To ask what ‘leaning in’ means to you and how you feel about it?

[TheTimeToChange]

I’d be interested to find out what you think about ‘leaning in’, as described as Sheryl Sandberg.

I think it’s a good idea, if I’ve understood it correctly. (I think it suggests the idea of someone being proactive and assertive at work in order to get further in their career).

What do you all think?

And how can people ‘lean in’ in practice? I think this is the bit I’m struggling with!

@ticketsfrom

I think you raise interesting points. I think large companies are leading the way on this (and the public sector). My experience of working for sme’s is different. Unfortunately, old attitudes prevail. Partly, this is down to lack of money to support new parents on leave and provide enhanced leave and later on manage or support flexible working. Sadly the worst firm I ever worked for in this respect had four female directors. I’ve never experienced a more sexist attitude anywhere else than I did there.

You are right about women speaking up though.

I think anything that starts a conversation is good. We have an older woman in our group, senior and I would say she wasn't the most friendly to younger women, junior women. never offered or thought about mentoring.
It seemed to me she was from that - well I put up with all the sexist crap and still succeeded attitude - and wasn't willing to make it easier for other women. Men are easier to manage, blah blah blah.

Anyway - about 3 meetings in, you could literally see the penny drop, that she, with a little effort could help and encourage other women and feel good about doing so. Leave something more of a legacy than the mouthy, bositerous all boys sales team she had created, championed and promoted. She's mentoring two younger female colleagues now, and has said she appreciates how different women can be to manage and actually how refreshing it is to find a different way to motivate people. And admitted that she was probably biased against female colleagues before - and of course as all this is said in confidence it's staying in the group.

I'm not super ambitious, I don't want to end up running a division, I want to spend time with my young family. But do I want to be stuck in the same position for 10 years because of that? Nope. So I'm asking for the pay rises. I'm asking for the promotion or the opportunities now - within the caveat that I'm part-time and won't put a job over my family. I wouldn't have before Lean In, I would have given it the 5-7-10 years before asking/pushing. And, astonishingly it's working. Because if you sit back and wait for someone to notice you, they won't. If you speak up they do pay more attention, and most importantly the firms who have brought this in are actually listening. Which for me is the whole point.

Brilliant ^

I took a deep breath took a leap and was rewarded with a £9,000 pay rise (jumped 2 grades) and now having to raise my game in terms of negotiation with more senior people.

I’m am a middle aged mother of three by the way, I don’t gave a nanny or a cleaner.

Leaning in means going for jumps even if you aren’t sure you’re ready. It means asking for more responsibility and money. It means, basically, that you need to take more risks which is true; but it also means you need to get over set backs. Women do need to learn how to take more risks because that is how you get the big money.

This might be true:
I think until we get over presenteeism and men not taking responsibility for their children then the concept of ‘lean in’ is misguided.
But
I think the idea that women should state what they want (because nobody is going to ask) and push themselves to have confidence in their abilities can't be a bad thing.
Yes we need men to lean in on the domestic front (where are the books by men about that??) but the more women in senior roles the better.
Makes a change from being expected to lean back (or step aside).

I’m moderately ambitious but my family is the most important thing. To me that means making my work the best it can be when I’m there to maximise my opportunities for flexibility etc when I really need them.
Leaning in-my first project in the U.K. was to look into what was being done wrong with implementing a legislation type thing I knew nothing about. I said I’ve not heard of it but I can pick it up, and they thought that was a great attitude and they wanted me on board. I recently had a woman tell me all the reasons she didn’t have the experience for the role I was trying to fill- I know she had pretty good experience but I didn’t find her attitude a drawcard so didn’t push it. On the other hand, I was looking for someone for another, full time, role and had a woman who works 4 days put forward. Great experience , so I worked out how to make it work with my team , sold it to the client and she started last month. I think it’s important to have senior people push for these things to work , but the attitude makes a big difference.

It means nothing to me, although it sounds very much like a “women if you want to be heard you have to be more aggressive”. Which I don’t necessarily disagree with but it’s so depressing.

Not aggressive. Assertive. As said above, sitting meekly in the corner waiting for someone to discover you won't work.

But the problem is @KatharinaRosalie, is that women are ‘aggressive’ where men are ‘assertive’ in work situations. Women are ‘ball-busting bitches’ while men are ‘assertive’.

You get the picture!

I sure do Diana. Woman is hysterical, man is passionate...
There have been studies showing that if women do negotiate and push for higher salaries, they are seen as less likeable and less likely to be hired. So damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I still do though, so far with good results, but god I can't even imagine how far I would be if I was a man.

Diana in the book, SS addresses this exact problem and suggests how to tackle things like asking for more money given the inherent biases against women. The book isn't written like this stuff doesn't exist and it's just a question of asking nicely.

There’s a great Harvard business review article I just sent to my company’s ceo where they actually TRACKED senior women and men and guess what - they were already leaning in as much as men. They spent as much time networking, presentee-ing, speaking up, having initiatives.

THEY JUST DIDNT HAVE IT RECOGNISED OR GET CREDIT FOR IT!!!

Sorry caps just cos it irritates me - I think she’s cool and has some great ideas but it’s a bit like saying - you already slay it, but you must do so 20% more than the guyz, as well as all the other systematic crap and all the housework, THEN you’ll be great!

I was miss mba scholar, senior leader, senior-senior leadership track

Whoops sorry didn’t finish hang on give me a sec

Lean In's an interesting read and I'm sure many have found it inspirational. It's a book that gives advice from a narrow perspective ( white, rich, mainstream, straight, extrovert, physically and mentally 'typical'). I feel that, while it's important to encourage women to 'lean in' it shows an ignorance f the systemic and structural barriers that many face. 'Just try harder' doesn't always work. However, books like Quiet, which acknowledge the value that diversity and difference can bring, are hopefully beginning to redress that balance. I've 'leaned out' when I finally realised I didn't function well in any organisation with more than one employee. I still work with people, but for myself and with the space and flexibility I need and I've never felt more successful or better balanced.

... any way, you get the picture I was the poster girl for ambition. Didn’t go back after mat leave. I was totally burnt out and had nothing left to give, had a secret biz project I wanted to work on, awful pregnancy and birth with ops afterwards etc... very unsupportive team. Mn gave me the fear but I got my husband to put assets and cash in my name. He carried on working but his career is in an industry skewed to younger people whereas as long as I could get back in I could prob stay until 70. Anyway people were so about my decision, it was AWFUL. I felt so shamed and like a failure. People are so patronising about it! I felt like writing a book called Lean The Fuck Out.

TLDR I applied for a cool part time specialist project in my old work, got it in a weekend, back on a leadership mentor scheme and the future is rosy.

I just feel like saying ‘sometimes it will all be okay if you just take your foot off the accelerator for a second’

Diana - those attitudes are changing and it’s up to us to help and accelerate that. It’s not about being ‘agressive’ It’s about making sure you assert yourself when you need or want to. And sitting around whinging about how ‘male’ office culture is or how unfair it is to women isn’t going to change a damn thing. Taking credit for work you have done and speaking up is.

Yes Boogle, I agree, even fifteen years ago it was like ‘lean in and conform to the existing system and be a workaholic lemming to succeed’ and some of the younger people who are coming up and saying ‘well actually xyz is not working for me and is old fashioned and inefficient so I’d rather not lean in thanks but do it this other way’ are very inspiring.

Oh, and I haven’t read the book by the way. The website’s pretty good though. Lots of materials and ideas and inspiration...

I much prefer Helena morriseys concept- don’t lean in, change the system

Muesli box I would definitely read 'Lean the fuck out'

I went for a job i wasn't fully qualified for and the interview was the most humiliating experience of my life I'd forgotten the minor detail of actually being able to do the work and having relevant experience that I could build on. There is such a thing as being appropriately realistic about your skills. Not all of us fail to get promoted because of sexism, or not just because of it.

Excellent, I’ll crack on with it then

Having said all that, self-confidence and a bit of entitlement can be a great thing. I follow someone I know in real life on social media and she has SUCH self-confidence and chutzpah (I mean definitely quite narcissistic) that it has been fascinating watching her launch herself after being a sahm. She has bounced from a few failed attempts but is totally shameless at presenting it all on insta etc as ‘and NOW, here I bounce on to something EVEN MORE AMAZING’. Her self-belief and resilience is amazing, and something I have come to want to emulate even a little bit.

But I don't think it takes into account how differently men and women are treated. Teaching is a prime example. I am a teacher and a woman. The way male teachers get treated as if they are amazing teachers, just because they're men, is ludicrous. A man does a good lesson - everyone (including him) goes on and on about how amazing he is. A woman does a good lesson - yes, she should do good lesson, that's her job.

I hear this a lot, and ashamed to say that most of that that I’ve heard comes from other women (MIL, I’m looking at you).
Not sure if it’s just women haters, or society in general. It’s horrible, whichever it is.

I haven't read the book, but know the main messages. I applaud her for contributing to the debate, but my approach is more 'keep going' than lean in any particular direction.

I had a senior role in my chosen field before having a child and have now been working part-time in a related sector for approx. 7 years.

My CV is consistent. I have done interesting work. I have earned enough to make it worthwhile. I have made 7 years more pension contributions, albeit part time. But I have also spent a lot of time with my child, which is priceless.

However, I do get that men and women are perceived differently in the workplace. I work in the most left-leaning, female-heavy and liberal sector around, but have still seen direct instances of men being preferred over more-experienced women for roles - despite competency-based interviewing processes it seems that there is still a lot of room for panels to 'interpret' how well someone meets those competencies.

It is fairly well documented that women can find it hard to progress in a male-heavy environment. However, it seems that in a female-heavy environment it is equally possibly for men to get into senior roles just by appearing more managerial and more authoritative. Is it the deeper voice, the facial hair - should I grow some in order to appear more convincing ? Look at the stats for male and female headteachers if you don't believe me.

To me, more part-time and flexible roles are the answer. Let everyone have access to these and those who want to lean further can do so.