I am livid with DH and men in general. AIBU?

[whatwhenwhy]

This morning my husband has gone to work, but I'm still feeling livid. AIBU?

I know that sometimes when he's away on business he might watch soft porn as a "mechanical aid" or "to speed things up" as he puts it I have seen the kind of thing he might watch and it's basically women on women group sex. He assured me he never watches anything with any form of bondage or violence and I have no cause to think otherwise. I have sometimes watched the female group sex videos with him and find it all fake and a bit of a joke to be honest, but each to their own.

Anyway, he came back from a business trip on Friday night. On Saturday morning, he was taking my daughter (10) somewhere. She went on his phone and saw an indecent image. I am not entirely clear what the image was. DH grabbed the phone from her. DD apparently had said, "Im going to tell mummy - ew" or words to that effect. DH obviously felt terrible and told her it was an advert that had randomly popped up. DD believes this because she has no concept of porn sites. DH told me what has happened when he got home - he was highly embarrassed. I asked him for the name of the site and when you google it, the homepage is various images including a woman about to give head and other flashing images inc women exposing their vaginas. I'm mortified that my daughter has even had a second's glimpse of this kind of thing.

Sorry if this is long, but I was very upset and we then had a conversation about the ethics of porn in general and how would he feel if his daughter ended up in the sex industry. In the course if this, DH revealed that "every stag do (except his) ends up in a strip club". This is historical because we're now in our 40s and I think there's only been a couple of weddings in the last ten years, but he's been on probably about 20 stag dos over the years and is "not sure" if the groom had a private dance or other extras. I know all these wives and also know that if they had known their DH had had a private dance before their wedding, they would have called the whole thing off. I told DH he had colluded with deceiving these friends of mine on their wedding day and it makes me feel sick. Plus, he never felt the need to tell me he had been in these clubs at the time or find out how I felt about them. Some have been in stags in Eastern Europe.

I am feeling lied to, even though this is all in the past and livid on behalf of some friends. Sorry, I know the phone thing and the historical stag strip club parties are two separate issues, but AIBU to feel absolutely livid? For context, we have been together 20 years, he is generally a kind and considerate husband and father. Our sex life has always been good. We have our "roles" in that I've been at home with the kids and he's the "provider" as such, but it works that way for us and we have few tensions. We have 3 DC. AIBU and over-reacting? Sorry this is so long.

“DH revealed that "every stag do (except his) ends up in a strip club".

You’re still being lied to.

In the course if this, DH revealed that "every stag do (except his) ends up in a strip club"

Bullshit. I'ma 44-year old man. Never been in a strip club, either on a stag do or otherwise.

but he's been on probably about 20 stag dos over the years and is "not sure" if the groom had a private dance or other extras

He doesn't know one way or the other. The likelihood is that many of them, even if they have been to a strip club, won't have had a private dance or other extras. Most proper strip clubs don't offer those anyway. He's saying this to minimise his behaviour and to make you think it's normal. It isn't. Unless your DH is only friends with complete wankers.

I know all these wives and also know that if they had known their DH had had a private dance before their wedding, they would have called the whole thing off. I told DH he had colluded with deceiving these friends of mine on their wedding day and it makes me feel sick

You don't know if all these grooms had any sort of private dance at all, so this is a major over reaction.

The porn use is something that either you're happy with or not. If you don't mind it, that's your call, but he needs to have a bit more fucking sense that to allow an image to be seen on his phone.

Your DH sounds a total wanker to me. Please don't allow him to suddenly become "livid with all men"

If i’m Honest, I really have never seen the need for stag or hen do’s to be several days abroad. I suspect that many men would see that as an opportunity for a “final fling” before marriage. People will probably tell me that’s my “issue” and maybe it is. But I wouldn’t want a fiancé of mine off to any European city for several days, on his stag. I feel it’s long been accepted that a stripper will make an appearance at a stag do, and if it’s just that, then that’s ok I feel but I don’t really believe that if they’re all off somewhere on a jolly, that it will end at just the strip. I know the same could be said of the UK, but I think being abroad gives a level of anonymity. However, there isn’t much you can do about that.

I would be fuming about the porn on the phone. You are well within your rights to say that you do not want your DD exposed to anything like that, even though it was inadvertent.

If his friendship group is such that every stag involves a strip club; his will be no different.

I'm not sure why this is so important now, though. Are you saying none of your friends know that there were strip clubs involved on multiple stag dos?

To be honest, it sounds like he's the type of man who thinks he can buy women. He has a porn habit and visits strip clubs. He's unlikely to have developed that view suddenly; and he's unlikely to change his view now.

A propos of absolutely nothing of course. How long is he away on business for that he can't even not have a wank?

Thanks. This is exactly what I said to him - that the fact you are getting married does not entltle you to going in strip clubs. Going in there is one thing, but paying for a private dance is another matter entirely as far as I'm concerned. To my mind, this is infidelity and sleazy to boot.

I know the wife well of the most recent stag he went on. I also happen to know she is totally 100 per cent against the strip-club industry because she comes from a country where women get trafficked and she has seen this side of it. DH will not confirm that her DH didn't have a private dance - so I take this as a "yes he did." I can just tell. I feel really angry with the whole lot of them. They have colluded in degrading my friend on the biggest day of her life - "for a laugh". It's deception, entitlement and degrading.

What makes me sick is that these men are not some rowdy tossers in their 20s. They are all educated, well-mannered and successful men with beautiful wives and children that they should be proud of and basically I would have expected far more respect and integrity from the lot of them.

I would be livid if my OH confessed to having gone to strip clubs 20 plus times during our relationship and never mentioned it to me before. He doesn’t sound like he can be trusted at all!

OP But you don't KNOW. You MAY be right. But you have absolutely no idea that every single stag do your friend's husbands had ended up in strip clubs and that that led on to private dances or extras. To feel angry with the whole lot of them is over the top. I've known stags dos where one or two have gone off to a strip club after the main drinking session - but the majority, including the groom and best man, went back to the hotel and slept. You cannot automatically tar every man you know or don't know as being a tosser simply because you happen to have married a tosser. You chose him!

There are a lot of things in this post.

Up until now you felt soft porn was okay. That kind of porn isn’t hosted in a special PornLite site. It’s on the same sites as hardcore porn. So in order to access it your husband would need to visit sites with graphic adverts on the homepage. He hasn’t lied to you about his porn use, as far as I can see.

Your daughter will see many porn ads on the net, they are a fact of life. It’s unfortunate that she should see it on her dad’s phone but it’s probanly not wise to have any phone without a fingerprint lock. He should have been more careful with his phone and he knows this and said as much.

Strip clubs on stag dos are another issue but this is I think the worst issue. He lied to you every time he went on one of these 20 odd dos because he knew or suspected you wouldn’t be okay with it. To an extent it’s been normalised but that doesn’t excuse the behaviour or the lying.

So where do you go from here? It seems you differ more about porn use than you thought. Are you still okay with him viewing soft porn now you understand what the website portals are like? How will he handle phone security in future? (Maybe he should have been set to ‘private browsing’). And given that he lied by omission about all those stags dos in the past how does he feel about that now. If he were invited on a stag next weekend what would he say/do? How would you feel?

One final thought/question, you raised the fact you have traditional gender roles (him as provider, you as homemaker). How does that division play into this? What concerns do you have about that role division that made you mention it?

I think you need to separate these things in your mind and deal with them each in turn.

Your DD finding porn on her dad's phone is not acceptable and he needs to make changes to make sure that never happens again. What those changes are is up to you two as a couple and as parents.

The stag do thing sounds complicated and there is no proof of private dances etc. Honestly I'd put this one behind you.

YABU to be livid with men in general, that's an unfair reaction.

these men are not some rowdy tossers in their 20s. They are all educated, well-mannered and successful men with beautiful wives and children that they should be proud of

Reading your update, OP, I think you have some baggage to unpack. What do you think happens to “rowdy tossers” twenty years on? The majority probably are married with kids. Porn use and strip club attendance isn’t confined to one demographic.

And you are only having this conversation now, in your 40's?

How bizarre.

YABU to have a bash at him NOW. The bash should have happened, if at all, twenty years ago.

I’ve never been to strip club that didn’t offer private dances and the Eastern European ones offer much more (touching is usually allowed in the cost of a private dance). If you’re willing to pay you can have whatever you like. Not all stag dos end up in strip clubs but most that I’ve been to have. The guys who like strip clubs will always have private dances, that’s the whole point of going and will happily burn £££. The guys who are just tagging along who wouldn’t normally actively choose to go generally won’t have private dances although occasionally they may just have one. The stag ALWAYS has a private dance, regardless of whether they want one or not! I’ve never had a private dance, I’m buggered if I’m paying £40 for 5 mins but I’ve seen people do a grand’s worth of private dances in one night.

Gross. It's a shame you can only feel angry about this now that your daughter is involved (for want of a better word) and not for the sake of the women in the videos you know your DH has enjoyed for so many years.

The stag ALWAYS has a private dance, regardless of whether they want one or not!

Really? So what, he's FORCED to have one?

The guys who are just tagging along who wouldn’t normally actively choose to go generally won’t have private dances although occasionally they may just have one

Ah, so they aren't men. They are sheep.

Glad my male friends aren't like you and yours reddington

He says that every stag he has ever been on has invariably ended up in a strip club and I estimate he must have been on about 20 over the years. He also told me that when he was a city trader in his 20s he went in a few - once he had to almost run out because the woman was coming in to him so much. Of course he never mentioned this to me at the time. He obviously has different groups of friends, but apparently despite the diversity, the stags have always gone the same way. These days his friends range from lawyers, bankers, political figures, actors - all very successful in their fields. They are the kind of men who are friends of mine too and I've never regarded then as sleazy. Now I feel disillusioned with all men basically. These are the husbands if my friends and they're all as bad as any old sleaze bag given the excuse.

DH's stag would not have involved a strip club because without being too specific he is one of these extreme sports fanatics and his stag was in the middle of nowhere. But that is a thread in itself.

He's been very contrite since these revealations. I know it's stupid getting worked up about things that happened years ago, but I feel as if he's shown a different side to himself that I'd never questioned before. I always trusted him and I've never known him to lie to me or anyone about anything. I don't feel as if I want sex with him at this time, I don't want to wear lingerie for him or myself or make any effort with him now because I feel uncomfortable in a way I never did before. I feel like he has colluded in making a mockery of my friends too and I'm very upset.

What do you think happens at stag dos in Eastern Europe? They're hardly there for the stunning scenery are they? And if you think its just a little exotic dancing, don't make me laugh.

once he had to almost run out because the woman was coming in to him so much

Yeah, right.

I don't want to wear lingerie for him

As opposed to wearing it because you want to wear it?

Weird first posting, this.

Seriously, I think you are excpetionally naive at nbest and have been in serious denial at worst.

You say he was a trader and that ll his friends are wealthy, successful and probably cocky as fuck.

I've lived in those circles myself, once upon a time, and those men are the very worst I've ever known for sexual exploits.

He's only fessed up because you caught him out.

Private dances aside, what's the difference between going to a strip club & watching women take their clothes off, and watching a porn film? If anything the strip club would be better as it's less explicit.

Men look at porn. So do women. Women read porn. So do men.

It’s really not a big deal. Allowing opportunity for your daughter to see it is another matter, so he needs to ensure nothing is left out for her to open up and see, but to fly off the handle because he watched porn.... I don’t understand that.

The stag do stuff - you don’t know the facts and the men didn’t cheat. They went to a strip club, when a group of people get together, their psychology changes. They egg each other on and do things they wouldn’t usually choose to do, when you combine that with drink and a celebratory atmosphere, things can get a bit out of hand. That doesn’t make it acceptable, but it also doesn’t make your husband, or his friends, sleezy. They have probably been in sooome questionable establishments if they were in eastern Europe and the exploitation would be an issue for me. But you don’t know that for a fact, and they could easily have been very professional clubs.

You can’t force your morality on someone else, but you can choose to leave if it bothers you so much.

My next step would be to demand honest - particularly about his own. Stag. And find out what really goes on instead of jumping to conclusions. It’s the lieing that’s the issue here, not the porn or stag do’s. Then you can decide if you can reconcile your morality with his.

I still can't quite get my head around the fact that you are only now having this conversation??

Mind you. I am constantly shocked at just how disconnected and secret so many relationships are .

What rock have you been living under that you are unaware of what goes on at stag dos?

I agree with Lupercalia wrt traders and the 'lifestyle' and attitudes to women that are characteristic of that macho world.

And how do you 'almost run' somewhere?

My fiancé has never been to a strip club and has no intention to. He doesn’t look at porn either (although people on mumsnet who must know him far better that I do say he does!). He is lying to you and that’s the worst part. He wasn’t forced into accepting a face.

...lawyers, bankers, political figures, actors - all very successful in their fields. They are the kind of men who are friends of mine too and I've never regarded then as sleazy.

Really? Is that because they are all private school types?