To “make” my kids be vegan?

[Sarcy]

About 3 years ago I decided to become vegan, my two youngest are being brought up vegan. Whilst my 4 older kids made the decision for themselves. One of them decided about a year ago that he didn’t want to be vegan anymore, at friend’s houses or when he’s out with friends he’ll eat meat but at home I don’t let him. I’ve had a lot of people tell me I’m wrong for “forcing” my kids into this or not letting them backout easily. This isn’t the case but I made sure DS had truly thought about it before deciding not to be vegan. I’m just trying to understand what makes people think it’s wrong to raise children on a vegan diet, surly giving your children meat is much worse

MintChocChip04, it’s because we’re always having to defend ourselves against bigotry and ignorance and claims of child abuse.

It gets a bit wearing after a while, trust me.

What's your reason for going vegan?

If it were for social or environmental reasons, I might be questioning your decision to have six children.

Giving them meat is much worse? Much worse than what? Forcing them to eat a severely restrictive diet that they don't want to eat? That's worse!

Oswin - I’m not a veggie, but I think you’re entirely right. Whilst some vegans are outwardly judgey, I think some people with omnivorous diets feel uncomfortable about their own choices when they encounter a vegan or a vegetarian.

Some can get so touchy about it that they pretend to be dieticians...

@RedDwarves I don’t think killing others lives for our own pleasure is right

I haven't rtft but it's got to be about your responsible parenting until children are old enough to make their own decisions.

I hope dd will want to be veggie when she's older. She's 3 at the mo and it is a challenge to get her to eat veggies or anything she doesn't immediately recognise!!! It will force DH and I to eat less meat. DH is a carnivore especially after his physical day at work.

I buy local meat and dairy when I can but I'm not as good as I want to be. Also that doesn't account for products within products.

As long as children are being fed a nutritious diet I have no issue with a vegan child i don't have the discipline

There are angry, militant people in all walks of life - the most visible vegans tend to be the activists as they make a point of being heard! There are plenty of vegans who just want to live quietly, comfortable in their own choice with no great need to be evangelical about it. You can’t generalise about a group of people like some people are on this thread!

I’d still be very interested to hear why a paediatric dietician considers dairy an essential food for humans when no other animal consumes milk (let alone the milk intended for another creature with very different anatomy....) beyond infancy.

All the arguments about nutrition aside,I would argue that it is actually not physically possible to make any child be a vegan. Yes while they’re tots and you have supreme control over where they are and what they eat, and while in your house you can refuse to cook certain things and as such they may eat a vegan diet at home.

But once they reach an age where they leave the house independently of you, at school, even from reception up, they are in a position to be able to choose what they eat. Children will e.g. bring in haribo. Other children may swap food from lunchboxes or even have a little taste, and as they gain more independence and are e.g. left at birthday parties without you they will be able to make their own choices, and you wouldn’t be able to stop them and neither should you try.

It's not wrong to raise them as vegan. What people are questioning, and rightly so, is the lack of choice.

I think if your dc want to eat meat then that's their choice. BUT I don't think you should have to provide it if you don't eat it yourself. Surely DC can carry on eating it at friends/ ordering it when they're out until they are old enough to cook for themselves?

@PosyFossilsShoes thank you for explaining - really interesting and v much appreciated

I'm a vegetarian not vegan (but only eat eggs from my mum's pet chickens, no milk, occasional cheese but cutting out etc) but my experience is that meat-eaters are by far the more aggressive group. They seem to see vegetarians and vegans as an intrinsic threat to be stamped out. I'm sure it's because it makes them feel bad about their own meat consumption.

I don't agree with extremists who throw flour or paint or stage deliberately upsetting protests. But I also don't agree with people allowing animals to be cruelly raised and brutally slaughtered because they like the taste and don't care about the environmental impact, so...

The current meat and dairy industries are absolutely unsustainable and are destroying the planet. Thousands of acres of virgin rainforest chopped down to grow grain for cattle. 15% of global emissions caused by farming and half of that is livestock! Giving up beef alone would reduce your environmental impact more than giving up your car.

So to the meat eaters - what kind of future are you leaving for your kids? And do you really feel good about it?

Nutritionally it is fine. But only if you are a good vegan. It is really easy to snack on junk food as a vegan and I can imagine kids being bad for this. You could try them at being vegetarian as it will be easier for the school lunches and visits to friends.

I've never stormed a restaurant, or anything else on your list, and I'm clearly not the angriest person on the thread.

What's your excuse for making posts that don't hold up very well? Nutritional deficiencies too?

It is really easy to snack on junk food as a vegan.

Equally true if you’re a meat-eater.

Op your son had year of enjoying meat before YOU made a choice to change all this. Sorry but thats absolutely cruel of you. If you had done it from birth then i would feel that you have a point. And people are saying he must eat what gets put in front of him and only eat meat when hes away, what if he's not visiting or seeing people for 5 days a week. Op you are awful for forcing this on him when its some whim that you decided on.

The only exception would be if you were one of those odd people who feeds their child breastmilk until they are 4 or 5 because then they would get animal protein from that! I think that under 5s need to be vegetarian or eat meat.

Odd to give a human child human milk until 4-5 years old but ok to give them the breast milk of another animal?
Right.

I think you should let him choose what he wants when you are out.

I know several children of vegans and veggies who become carnivores as teenagers. I agree with whoever said it's like religion, they have to make up their own minds at some point and you should support whatever decision they make.

meat-eaters are by far the more aggressive group

Don't remember the last time I've seen omnivores storm a vegetable patch.

I know people who were brought up vegan/veggie and decided to try meat and then were horribly sick because their bodies just didn't know how to cope with the meat.
(Needless to say they highly resent their parents for that!) So you are not really giving your DC the chouce if you are bringing them up fully vegan, even if you let them decide when they are older. When out they should ALL be allowed meat if they so chose.

It's not about vegans announcing they're vegan, it's about buckeejits being, well, buckeejits - & in that instance, taking the form of I am A VEGAN!!!eleventyone! I've met one of those. She was terribly upset about having to share the dairy-free margarine with me on a big Guide camp & I couldn't break into her monologue about her veganism to explain that there was no risk at all of my contaminating the tub with animal products, because I'd not be eating them either. She also refused to attend reflections because she was Buddhist. Reflections being a vaguely spiritual(ish) thing rather than religious (very literally a quiet time to reflect, with a reading or two designed to inspire, no prayers or anything). There are heaps of people who'll chunter on about their pet passion, working it into every conversation - it's really REALLY not "a vegan thing". Difference is, sometimes vegans actually do need to make people aware they're vegan - what with that whole business where eating food is a thing

As for "how dare vegans force their children to be vegan!?" - surely meat-eaters are "forcing" their children to follow a particular diet just as much? In the UK, certainly, the "normal" diet isn't a healthy one - hence not only the obesity level but the fact people are suffering from malnutrition despite being overweight or obese: this 2009 article in British Journal of Nutrition noted that, on their single-day study at an acute hospital in North East England in 2007 Interestingly 9·5% (ten out of 105) of patients defined as at high risk of malnutrition with a MUST score of 2 or more were also obese with a BMI [of at least] 30 kg/m2. It seems reasonable to assume that number would now be higher were the study to be repeated. Obviously one can be vegan & overweight or obese (so please let's not try to sidetrack the thread into "ugh, smug skinny vegans") - my point is that the modern Western Diet is having a catastrophic effect on the population of the country; so "Oooh, being vegan is soooooo unhealthy! Won't anyone think of the children!" just sounds a bit daft. You can, of course, have a spectacularly unhealthy vegan diet - at either extreme of the plant-based spectrum, especially now there's so much more vegan[-friendly] junk-food (easily) available & so much stuff out there essentially promoting disordered eating. The immediate assumption that vegans are Doing It Wrong, though, is weird. And rather offensive, really.

As far as children developing rickets goes, if you read what the NHS had to say after the 2010 press coverage, there's no mention that veganism is a risk factor. Dietary insufficiency is mentioned, yes, but if vegans were the ones predominantly affected, you'd expect there to be a wee mention of that - it's the sort of thing God gave us brackets for... Obesity, however, gets a mention; as does the possibility of results being skewed by the ethnic diversity of the population (with caveat that places with less diverse populations have seen a similar increase in vitamin D deficiency); & of course [lack of] exposure to sunshine is the bit of the research that made the headlines.

I have had osteopenia so severe it was right on the borderline of osteoporosis. I've an anaphylactic allergy to all dairy products, but it wasn't being dairy-free that did it - my hips were barely osteopenic at all. Massive doses of oral steroids all through my teens & into my early twenties had basically strip-mined my spine; & I got to see someone headdesk IRL when my GP asked me what my last DXA results had been like & I told her I'd never had one... I'm only considered at risk of osteoporosis now because I've to take frequent courses of high-dose oral steroids - my diet's never caused concern, presumably because answering a couple of questions reassured my consultant that I know what I'm about.

It seems as if a lot of people haven't read the OP's posts where she explains that what her 11yo wants is to eat animal products when he's out of the house, in order to fit in with his friends. Which she's agreed to. So no question of him breaking out the mouthwash in the McDonald's loos & then coating himself head-to-toe in Superdrug/Sainsbury's-own version of Lynx before entering the house. Given he's just wanting to eat meat to fit in with his peer group, OP continuing to only provide plant-based meals at home is perfectly reasonable. Even, to be honest, if he were no longer wanting to be vegan, I don't think it would be unreasonable for OP to continue to only provide plant-based meals. You can't make a direct comparison to when a child/teen wishes to become vegetarian or vegan, because those are dietary changes where the existing household meals are no longer suitable, so they need to be provided with an alternative (in some form, which might mean cooking for themselves). A child/teen in a vegan or vegetarian household who wishes to add animal products into their diet should of course be free to do so - but they're still able to eat the household meals & lots of vegetarians & vegans are genuinely physically repulsed by meat/fish so cooking it would be utterly anathematic to them. So yes, the change from vegetarian/vegan is not simply the reverse of the change to it.

Oh & all the PP merrily piling on to call OP Worst Parent Ever & Abusive (etc) - did you miss the PP who's letting her DD with lactose intolerance just have whatever she fancies when they're out because soya milk's "rank" & "yuk" & she doesn't want to go without or endure said soya rankness. I don't think that's abusive, to be clear; nor do I think that's Worst Parent Ever material. I do, however, think it's hugely ill-advised & storing up all sorts of problems for the long-term. Her DD's lucky that there is now a lot of choice (relatively speaking) for people following dairy-free diets & those choices keep expanding. There are other milks to try at home, some of which are increasingly available in coffee shops etc. If it's eating out: allergen-labelling makes avoiding dairy when buying picnic-type-stuff very easy & there are quite a lot of Accidentally Vegan snack foods; restaurant-wise, lots of UK chains now offer vegan menus which ensure Safe Food for the dairy-free & in lots of cases make pudding (& sometimes pizza) possible where normally it wouldn't be.

It just baffles me that posters are so willing to accuse OP of half-killing her children (& of course causing irreparable psychological damage to the 11yo, who's also going to leave home asap - for a job in an abattoir, one assumes - & never return) when Metoodear openly admits to [facilitating the] doing [of] something that makes her daughter unwell. I totally understand it is well-intentioned & she doesn't give any idea of how often her daughter is having dairy etc; but while obviously the need to avoid it isn't comparable to the need for someone with an allergy to do so, why would you habituate your child to having something that makes them unwell? People of all ages cope with not being able to have all kinds of things; & if diagnosed in (early) childhood it's much easier to cope with Just Never Having Allergen/Cause-Of-Intolerance. Parents of Brownies I've had with food allergies &/or intolerances have made sure that they find suitable snacks for their DDs & if necessary provide them to ensure their child doesn't feel they're missing out. (Not necessary at Brownies, because anything we do with food's suitable for everyone in the Unit. Am meaning things like checking with birthday party hosts about food & then - most of the time - sending a packed lunch along to the party; & having dairy-free chocolate buttons ready for when their child's been given/missed out on sweets they can't eat.) I can't make a comparison with dairy versions of things, but there are definitely some dairy-free chocolates that are nicer than others & all of them are vastly improved from 10 years ago. The rate at which my Brownies demolish vegan s'mores & the fact they ask to make them every time we have a planning session rather suggests that dairy-free chocolate is acceptable to plenty of children who've no need of it. Well, nobody actually needs chocolate of any kind, but in the sense that they could have chocolate with milk in without any problems.

As for vegans all being angry & militant The vegan population isn't some kind of amorphous plant-fuelled hivemind with a monomaniacal bent. Although the Vegan Society's definition of veganism* is clear that being vegan means, for, example, not wearing wool or leather & only using cruelty-free toiletries there are an increasing number of people who are "just" following a plant-based diet but refer to themselves as vegan; so you can't even confidently assume a shared set of values. That gang don't exactly tend to be militant. More weirdly evangelical about kale & avocado. And they are, if anything, almost suspiciously perky, frankly. Within the vegan population there is a significant crossover, as one might expect, with animal rights activists. People do tend to get quite angry-frustrated about the causes they're passionate about. Then you've the rest of the vegan population, who you'll find in all walks of life & all states of mind. Just like people who follow other diets. It's almost as if (wildly unhelpful & hugely frustrating) sweeping generalisations & tired stereotypes are nothing more than that...

• A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

Forgive me if I'm being slow, but most of the posts about veganism for children are focusing on meat eating

Vegetarianism is very very normal and non meat options are pretty straightforward

However as I understand it from my adult vegan friends, it's often the case that the meat free options contain eggs or cheese or butter or milk, and that's much more restrictive

Similarly, those who are allergic to dairy find restrictive, because milk powder is in everything!!!

Not eating meat seems pretty straightforward - it's completely avoiding any dairy products that people tell me is most tricky

And therefore it's that, rather than meat, in everyday life, that's the bit I would have thought could be challenging for a child (without ruthless pre planning to have vegan alternatives, which presumably is more limiting in spontaneous situations)

I'm only going off what my adult vegan friends and those with dairy allergies tell me - as they say it can often be a pain in the arse!

As a vegan myself I understand your view point. I too am raising my son vegan, when he learns the hard facts about the dairy and meat industry, if he then still wants to consume animal products that's fine, but I won't be buying or preparing it for him. If he's old enough to make the decision he's old enough to sort it out himself. Otherwise he'll eat how my husband and I do in my own home (husband is an Omni but also cooks and buys his own meat, doesn't expect me to and will eat vegan more often than not through his choice to eat what's on the table, not make a separate meal)

Mintchocchip - please don't believe the propaganda the media are trying to portray of vegans, of course they're going to try and show us all as angry and militant, because the meat and dairy industries are terrified at just how quickly this is growing. Veganism has risen from 500,000 to 3 million people in the UK in two years.

For the comments about it being restrictive - as veganism is growing it's getting a lot easier. You can go to Sainsbury's and get a vegan pizza, vegan mozzarella, halloumi, parmesan, cream cheese, vegan Cornettos, vegan Swedish glace ice creams that are like mini magnums. Oreos are vegan, so are party rings, some dark chocolate cookies, most strawberry doughnuts from supermarkets are vegan, so are skittles, starburst, jelly tots, skips, ready salted crisps.. if you want to be able to treat your children to those things every so often, it's incredible easy to do so. And when my daughter comes to going to parties, I would ask if I could bring along some vegan options - most people I've met have been very accommodating, but I'd be happy to bring something to help. If at the party, she felt like eating something else that would be her decision.

The only thing that's really annoying me on here is people saying 'poor kids" or "it's cruel" - there's nothing more cruel than a baby cow being torn from its mother within 24 hours, sometimes just to be shot in the head if it's a boy or raised for veal. Baby male chicks being gassed or macerated when they're born because they're no use for them in the egg industry. I mean, I can at least get on board with the argument that we're evolved to eat meat (even though I don't agree with it morally) but there is absolutely NOTHING necessary about the dairy industry, and nothing needed from those products that you can't get from a plant based diet.