To think unversal credit is a disaster *trigger warning*

[jnfrrss]

This just popped up in my feed. Talking about someone that had an abortion as they wouldn't be able to afford the child without credits. It's not just an isolated issue, a charity says they've had a huge increase in women contacting about abortions as now they won't be able to afford to have any more children. I'm not sure what the answer is but this is very worrying

www.mirror.co.uk/money/it-wasnt-planned-very-wanted-12480380

Lying no sorry I agree, it is really sad. I think the thing is they are actually 2 separate issues. Perhaps it is right in theory that the government only pay for say 2 children (although in Europe there is a population crisis with not enough babies being born and lots of old people), but surely the upside of that should be that, as you say, people who are already here and children already born in the UK should be able to benefit. But they are suffering more than ever! Which you're right is horrible :(

All I can be grateful for is that I'm lucky that my area is one of the last to be rolled over to UC, and I hope that we have improved and are earning enough to be above the threshold to bow to there ridiculous whims. Not only is the system a joke financially, but the hoops they are making people who are already likely disadvantaged in some way is truly disgusting. I want to move abroad!

Juicey I would be reluctant to see that policy extended to Ireland; surely the fact that there are strong religious taboos there about contraception and abortion and a generally outdated attitude towards women that the only people who would suffer are fairly vulnerable women and children?

Why are people blaming the government? Why should the government pay the cost of raising your child/children. I think the fact that they give money towards 2 children per family is ridiculously generous. I'm sorry to say but you should only have children if you can afford to raise them.

People saying accidents happen, well yes they do but if you do not want or cannot afford more children but wish to maintain a sex life there are things you can do. For example She can use one of the free forms of contraceptives and he can use another - 2 forms increase the chance of no accidents. Or use the NHS and she could have a sterilisation surgery and so could he.

I hate the attitude that exists now - the i want so i should be able to have and screw the practicalities. I find it awful that its just assumed that the government will pick up the financial burden. And that goes for a lot more than just having children!

No one working full time in a socially valuable job such as caring for the elderly should be paid so badly they need a government top up.

The model we have now, where employers can pay such shit wages that the taxpayer has to top them up is disgraceful. How can we justify such a system?

We need better worker protection. Zero hour contracts need to go back to being the niche they once were, for students doing a bit of bar work for example. No person doing a forty hour plus week regular job should be on a zero hours.

Two parents doing a full time minimum wage job should be able to clear enough to live. The fact they can’t because companies pay so badly, while still recording massive profits, is rage inducing, it’s another example of asset stripping from the public purse to the private. You also have housing benefit paid to private landlords- why can’t we build more social housing and end right to buy?

The asset stripping is the real drain on society. The UK is a low wage low skill country - we need to end that.

JustAnother... how are you going to access that money? The government isn't going to give it for more than 2 children.

In my first post, I wasn't talking about children/people already here with the 'reproduce' comment - but about prioritising the people here rather than those not yet conceived (who would fall outside the 2 children rule).

I personally don't like the 2-child rule, I have bugger all idea what to do about redressing it though. If the money isn't being made available then it's not there, however wrong that is.

We have a brilliant but crumbling -for-investment NHS - that's a priority for me, it's available to everybody and we'd all be screwed without it.

People blame the government as don't want to admit they made poor choices, don't take personal responsibility, are lazy and don't want to work or do just enough to avoid the benefits cap etc. Easier to blame somebody else. It's the states fault, it's my upbringing, my contraception failed etc.

I wonder how many less "accidental" pregnancies there would be if the cap was taken down to zero and their was no child support. I'd imagine a whole lot less.

Nobody has to be pregnant, there are multiple methods that can be used together plus you can avoid ovulation and abstain etc.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe I understand the point you were trying to make though.

"Ah yes, the mythical magic money tree that means people with little or no money can magically find a van, moving costs, fuel and the deposit for a new home. Silly me!"

But don't forget home owners have additional costs that renters do not: Deposits, House insurance, maintenance, cost of repairing or replacing fixtures and fittings.

If people in Ireland are claiming euros they are in the Republic of Ireland, which is a completely separate country from the UK

Ireland will get front row seats of the shit show that universal credit is going to explode into the the UK over the next couple years, and I hope that it serves as a lesson to NOT follow suit.

Boxsets absolutely, everyone knows there were no "excess" children born before those dastardly benefits came in and everyone was cared for and nurtured and well fed and happy. They only introduced them so people could stop being honest hard working people and sit around on the dole smoking weed all day...

2 people doing full time work on minimum wage earn £31800 per year and they only pay tax on £9000 of that thats about £2400 a month take home. Rent can be had for around £600 (outside of london) 2 bed flat or terrace. Where i live you would get a 3 bed.

£100 council tax, £120 utilities still leaves well over a grand a month.

I agree housing costs are crazy in some places but demand vs supply will always make it so.

Also if you are a grown adult over 25 with a half decent work record please do ask yourself why you are still on minimum wage.

"Two parents doing a full time minimum wage job should be able to clear enough to live. The fact they can’t because companies pay so badly, while still recording massive profits, is rage inducing, it’s another example of asset stripping from the public purse to the private. You also have housing benefit paid to private landlords- why can’t we build more social housing and end right to buy?

The asset stripping is the real drain on society. The UK is a low wage low skill country - we need to end that."

Yes. Agree with this.

I actually think the article mentioned by the OP is a pernicious bit of government propaganda. Because they've probably rightly presumed that most people wouldn't take pity on a woman with 2 children who hasn't worked for 12 years but yet wants another child. If the Mirror had run with a story on a woman living in her car then people's reactions would be much more different (I'd like to think).

Therefore the end goal of this is to get people to froth about the lazy workshy twats on benefits who just want to procreate and debase the state. Wonder where all the outrage about Carillon disappeared to but yet we have benefit-bashing shows on repeat just reinforcing the government view.

@Bunce there are loads of parts of the south east where £600 would not get you a 2 bedroom flat.

Three friends of mine all earning min wage (or just over on weekends) are sharing a 2 bedroom flat a couple hours outside London. Their rent is almost £1k for a student-style flat. It's the cheapest 2 bed they could find.

Remember too that with new HMO licenses, landlords won't agree to rent to single, non-related sharers as readily. Legislation means unless you rent to a family, you have to invest chunks of money into kitting your property out to HMO standards.

So, for single people on min wage, the pool of house shares gets smaller and shittier, and you can't afford a place of your own.

What's the solution there? Business is booming for the slumlords, which horrifies and terrifies me. Housing is going backwards very rapidly.

Bowlofbabelfish sums it up perfectly.

bunce

Not all areas in the UK have property available for £600. No less than £800 for a 2 bed place in Milton Keynes, rarely you might get one for £750 or so, and very often they will be £850 - £900.

Again this is doable, but after all bills and the likely cost of childcare or wraparound care you will only have enough for the essentials, it would take a long time to save any contingency money and you are constantly at risk of being one large bill, unexpected expense or end of tenancy away from being truly in the shit.

There is no need to be so judgmental about people's earning either, it's quite shameful actually. I am 24 and earn only earn about £21k, I would never judge someone earning less and especially women as it is often down to us to bear the strain on careers and be cornered into accepting low skilled or part time work to fit around having children. Don't have children then, you might say - but is it really right for that to be the only solution? And what about all the people who might have had well paying jobs but lose them or become ill? All sorts of stuff happens in life, and you're just being incredibly reductive and black and white. It's not always down to a person's "stupidity" that they are struggling. One huge thing that might effect them, funnily enough, is the huge overhaul to welfare that UC is. If you have planned a family on the basis that you have x and y available to you, and then that changes, is that really your fault?

So she’s already playing the system by living separately to her boyfriend and now she’s upset that she won’t get more money for a third child . She ( and people like her ) are the reason there’s a child cap . We do not need to have people who cannot look after themselves having more and more children . It just doesn’t make sense . Children born into poverty do not have the same chances as those not , surely it makes sense to prevent this rather than deal with the resulting issues .

VladimirsPoutine completely agree with you, it happens all the time.

Like the article some time ago about the woman who wouldn't/couldn't work because she got more on benefits. Completely not the case for 99% of people on benefits and only a temporary situation for her as well, with a plethora of long term down sides for her. But lets focus on the fact that she gets more money on benefits than working...

Unless you privately educate, had all your anti and postnatal care privately, use BUPA etc YOUR kids also cost the tax payer money - and way more than you probably pay in

I hate the 'tax payer' argument - it's silly

UC is awful - it's causing major problems to the poorest in society, including the WORKING poor, and we should be concerned about that

I'm worried we live in London ( also. Pretty middle classed area )

I fell pregnant At 15, baby is now 11 ! We stayed together finished our exams, he trained to go in to the fire service and I went to college then uni whilst working.
I settled in youth work.
After uni I was still working in youth centre, decided that due to already having ds then was the right time to have a second before plunging in to a career that I studied for. We were financially ok.
I then gave birth to a beautiful little girl now 5 who ended up not coming home from hospital until she is 2 and still fighting daily with mutiple medical needs. Age 22 my life had been turned upside down. Haven't managed to get that career and had to leave the youth centre to look after her.
My husband works his arse of for a service we need in this country.
He was working all day at the Grenfell tower.
But we now are in the situation where we can't even afford the children we already had and have some what fallen in to a gap !
We will never be able to afford to have another child.
We live in a town in the middle of some weird social cleansing.
Where studio flats are going for 1600 pound a month.
We now can't afford a bigger place, we can't move because of daughters health.
God knows what would happen to anyone like us now who have 3 children.

The entire population cannot move to the cheapest part of the country!

Supermarkets exist nationwide, admin, nhs and lsa jobs exist nationwide - many of the public sector jobs are NEEDED nationwide. They pay NMW.

It's absolutely shallow and non sensical and shows no real thinking into people's lives to think these jobs can only exist and are only required in areas where rents are cheap.

Topsy there's nothing I can say because the situation is quite rightly how you put it - shit and a stalemate.

What I mean is that it’s not for anyone else to decide who is deserving and who isn’t

In theory I might agree, but in the real world where some expect to take and take while avoiding any personal responsibility, it seems someone's got to

One thing the thread's amply demonstrating is that there's always a "yes, but ... ", and while I hope nobody pretends the issue is a simple one, it still needs saying that parents aren't being refused more children, having their fertility interfered with and all the rest of it - they're simply being told that nobody else will pay