AIBU to ask you to explain cultural appropriation and why it is bad to me

[ConfusedWife1234]

So I am a white woman of mixed European ancestry and I think most of the things I typically wear are European or US American in origin, apart from polo Shirts and khakis (which I learned are Indian in origin, but I did not even know this until recently).

So I am not sure what cultural appropriation is. Is it cultural appropriation:

-If a rich person dresses down
-If a poor person dresses like a billionaire
-If a civilian wears clothes of military origin
-If a white European dresses like a white American
-If a white European dresses like a Afroamerican
-If a young person attends a re-enactment group and dresses up for a historical event that happened before he or she was born

Or is is just cultural appropriation if a person from another culture chooses to dress in a dress worn for special occasion... like this girl who wore a Chinese wedding dress for her prom.

Also why is cultural appropriation bad. Not asking to be snarky here. Really interested to learn.

Is it that the dress is seen as sacred, like maybe a Christian would be offended if someone wore a cross as part of his dress... or is it the idea that a certain style of dress must be earned.

It was 9 minutes. I am a fast reader, perhaps you aren’t. I am able to pick up the salient points and scan over the stuff about the French etc. Nice try though.

Well yes, you didn't have a "famine"

Actually we did. It was 50 and 40 years before the potato famine. Due to adverse weather conditions, made worse by war with France

that halved the population of your country,

It didn't 'half the population of the country'. It affected western Ireland. No one starved in Dublin

so yes, you fucking did.

Did what? Have it easier?
You think being crippled by machinery by the age of 14, dropping dead of exhaustion after working 16 hours a day in a factory or crushed to death in a coal mine, living in filthy sqaulid slums is having it easy?

Can't we just agree that white people who wear cornrows, get Maori tattoos, go on spirit journeys or get into shamanism have a tendency to look like dicks, and leave it there?

No we can’t Scott. Who made you the thread police.

@ConfusedWife1234 "I just said they had the cultural ackground to play this in a typical German way which gives the piece of music a German soul."

Does the same German soul apply to Scooter's (dance druggy) music or Rumstein's (far right lyrics and appeal)?

www.digitalspy.com/tv/this-morning/news/a839771/this-morning-martina-big-woman-claims-to-be-black-tanning-injections/

This is why it’s offensive she now saying she is a African lady wtf

TeaAddict I am not that familiar with Scooter or Rammstein, but to me Rammstein sounds like the German accent overdone... I speak several languages, German being one of them and to me it sounds like Rammstein is playing with the German accent/German tone of voice... and sort of overdoes it... making it sound extremely German... so German that no really German (who is not a member of Rammstein) ever speaks like this.
but really I am not a fan. I heard something from them only a few times and I think I really cannot comment on them.

Rammstein vehemently deny having far right affinity. They sing controversial lyrics for sure.

Oops, misspelled Ramstein by the way. Googled them too because I did not hear they were righting before and I used to know a left wing person who loved them. They officially claim to be apolitical but some say they are right wing. Like I said I do not know much about them because I dislike their music.

Scott.

Ha ha haaaaaa

Apologies if Ramstein are not right wing, they seem to have a very large right wing following in Estonia, Russia and the likes, even in the US. But, do you get my point? A heart and appreciation for music is not based on a nationality or race etc, maybe one may have a special or different connection (nostalgia) to a certain music, but it is a language that transcends race and spoken languages. The South African national anthem for the rainbow nation brings all SA to tears at times, but it also brings many other people who have struggled and have not struggled to tears at the beauty of the music.

On another note, @ConfusedWife1234 why do you not feel nostalgic towards Wagner?

Tea I just took Wagner as ONE of many examples for music that cannot be understood without knowing the cultural context.

For how is a person going to understand what The Ring of The Nibelung is all about when you have no idea of the Nibelungensaga, who Siegfried is, what the Rhinegold was or what a Valkyre is?

There is a lot of other examples. There are some specific German words for feelings that do not have equivalents in other languages in they German language, such as Fernweh or Weltschmerz... and this is a classical topic in music... well, I am really not convinced that a culture that does not even have a word for that will understand a song about it.

A lot of classical music also draws from works of classical literature which again refere to German culture (of that time).

apart from polo Shirts and khakis (which I learned are Indian in origin, but I did not even know this until recently).

You're wrong on both accounts.

The origin of Khaki(s)
The origin of Polo shirts

Steam Thanks. I will look at that.
Tea I just thought another and to my mind even better example of a German feeling that has no equivalent in other cultures. Sehnsucht, again the word does not have an equivalent in any of the languages I know. Or do I just not know the equivalent word?
Sehnsucht is the bittersweet longing for something perfect, a perfect love, a perfect place. There is a poem of that name by Schiller which has inspired composers and another one by Goethe Nur wer die Sehnsucht kennt. I think it is not possible to understand the Music for that poems without knowing which kind of cultural ideas inspired that poem.
Have you heard about the blue flower one of the German symbols for Sehnsucht and has inspired many poems and works of art and also music... but I do not think that the idea of the quest to search for the blue flower exist in other cultures. The blue flower cannot be reached. The quest for the blue flower is very different from quests known in other cultures because it is the quest for something known to be forever out of rich, it is there and it is beautiful but it might not be touched by the mortal.
But I guess I bore you with too much if German culture. I just wanted to explain my short remark that music always existed within culture and was not above culture.
Back to the discussion abou appropriation.

out of reach, not out of rich is what I meant to say if course.

The quest for the blue flower seems very similar to the story of the quest for the blue bird (or is it a yellow bird?) the colour is unimportant - the quest is the same - and yes, it exists in may cultures.
Just as Valkyries exist across many European cultures - most predominantly in Norse culture. But the word appears in old English, there are Irish shield maidens etc etc. Certainly in no way limited to, or special to, German legend.
You'd be amazed just how many stories vastly different cultures have in common - without even realising it. When I was in Hanoi I learned their ancient legend of the choosing of the king. A turtle swam across the lake to a humble nobody and presented him with a magical sword that made him the king. Take away the turtle and it was very similar to the legend of King Arthur. And yet when Arthurian legend first swept England in a big way (14th century or thereabouts) I bet most English people (if not all) were completely unaware of the existence of Vietnam as a place. And vice versa. yet two completely different cultures - a world apart - create pretty much the same story.

It's true that someone may not appreciate or enjoy (for example) the Ring Cycle in the same way as a German person if they are not aware of all the cultural markers that are in there... but it is ridiculous to suggest that that would affect the playing of the music - as you seemed to have claimed elsewhere - that you can tell when a non-German plays the music as it is lacking in 'German soul'.
When I listen to ride of the Valkyries, I have no idea what the musician performing knows or doesn't know. Their knowledge will not affect what I get out of it, or the images I see. Similarly, the world's leading expert in Valkyries and German folk lore could play the music... if they are playing to a room who don't know what a Valkyrie is then the appropriate images will not be created no matter how proficient (or German) the musician is. Hearing 'German soul' from a German musician is entirely your experience. It is the interpretation you put on their performance - not the performance that they give.
The idea that non-Germans won't know xyz is ludicrous. If they are interested, they will learn. However:
For how is a person going to understand what The Ring of The Nibelung is all about when you have no idea of the Nibelungensaga, who Siegfried is, what the Rhinegold was or what a Valkyre is?

I didn't know the story of Cinderella until I read it. I didn't know the story of Les Miserables until I saw it. I didn't know the story of Star Wars until I saw it. Why on earth do you think I will be unable to follow the story of the Ring Cycle if I go in cold? Everybody has to experience every story they ever encounter for the first time at some point - and you're not supposed to know a story before you read it - it's meant to be a surprise. Why on earth do you think German stories are so special that no foreigner could ever comprehend or follow them? If the story telling is good - all salient facts will be picked up on throughout - and anything the viewer is unsure about they can google later. I'm pretty sure the programmes they sell at performances of The Ring will give a good breakdown of the story for anyone who's German isn't up to following the singing.

Isn't "Star Wars" based on the "7 Samurai"?.

Isn't "Star Wars" based on the "7 Samurai"?.

No.

OP, try reading this article for a balanced view on the girl wearing the Chinese dress. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/04/american-woman-qipao-china-cultural-appropriation-minorities-usa-dress

Please ignore people conflating appreciation of other cultures (eg liking food from other countries or music from other cultures) to cultural appropriation, which could be described as people trivialising significant parts of a historically oppressed people’s culture, eg. Native American headdresses being worn at festivals, as past posters have mentioned.
Sorry if this is repeating whats been said, I got half way through the thread and was finding some of the extrapolations away from the issue (“well, is speaking a foriegn language Cultural Appropriation? Is reading Tolstoy? Is eating a scone? Is wearing jeans? Is going to Nandos?”) a bit Daily Mail for this time in the morning.

PS apologies to past posters, just looked at last few pages and read more thoughtful debate about this. Will read full thread next time

confusedwomen1234

I think you are talking about some sort of mythical Germany that doesn't exist anymore. It's almost a pastiche you are describing. I know Germans like to think of themselves as Dichter&Denker but I really don't see much evidence for that at the moment.
And I absolutely refuse to believe that you require the right genes to appreciate certain music, all you require is curiosity and being open to things. I can't stand Wagner, actually don't like opera in general, I wouldn't sit through a single scene of one of his operas at Bayreuth even if I were Bundeskanzlerin, despite my pretty much exclusively German genes, my favourite composer is Hungarian (Bartok). My NZ-born and raised dp can sing through all the Schubert song cycles and would walk over hot coals to get to a decent Mahler concert.
Music should be something to bring people together not to divide them further. You know, like in "alle Menschen werden Brüder" to quote my beloved Beethoven (I know Schiller really but it is always set to music in my head).

The Magnificent Seven is based on 7 Samurai.

'Not sure what you mean here, but the Irish played just as a much a part in building the British empire/colonialism.'

O yeah the Irish ruled India and caused mass deaths in Kenya and India, yeah the sun never sat on the Irish Empire. Your ignorance is utterly dumbfounding. Ireland was COLONISED by England YOU FOOL.

And most emigration was to America not the UK, your summary of Irish history has my IRISH HISTORIAN friends actually belly laughing had to show her....

Alpineflower, so no one in Dublin died in the Irish famine, mostly in the west eh?

What kind of seriously messed up education did you receive, I am just utterly utterly gobsmacked by your sheer cheek and denial of history. I am reporting you as I would a Holocaust denier or anyone else who denys huge amounts of painful history. You should be ashamed of yourself your ideas are disgusting and downright insulting to millions f people.

this thread isn't just a great demonstration of why CA is a problem, but it's a great demo of another of my pet hates

which is that everyone seems to be expected to know about everything worldwide. Where did that come from? Just because we have the internet doesn't mean we have the time or desire to analyse squillions of years of worldwide history, culture, religion, music, ballet etc etc etc.

I agree there are some, er, interesting misunderstandings around but equally someone could take the piss out of me for knowing nothing about Europe. I am careful not to start flinging opinions around - I know where my areas of zero knowledge are - but with CA comes a kind of scornful "don't you know xyz" and I'm thinking "no, I don't and why is that not okay?" Everyone knows some stuff and doesn't know other stuff.