To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Nope, never said that. Read the full thread if you can be bothered.

Zzzz.... this issue .... not again.

"there might be a way forward for both viewpoints; that women's rights could coexist with trans rights given the proper management"

How, exactly? What do YOU suggest?

You've been very comfortable to critique others' views and endlessly restate your own initial points, but I haven't yet seen you engage with the substance of the many other questions that have been posed to you over the past eleven pages of (mostly) open and thoughtful contributions to the debate you started. Nor have I seen you develop your initial arguments in any sensible, coherent way.

I'm sorry to sound condescending, but when you started this thread I had high hopes that I might actually learn something from it. You seemed like someone who was well versed in the issues and willing to engage, and I really thought I might find something in your posts to help me better understand your side of the argument.

Unfortunately, I have not.

Oh thats good then eyeroll... to be fair i didnt say that you did say that

So im still confused...loads of us have said we are fully behind trans rights

I post loads (of shit to be honest) and I certainly don't believe ive said anything transphobic

"I’ve seen some shocking things, posters saying trans rights is the only important issue in feminism right now (so fuck you if you care about domestic violence or equal pay, and anyway threads on those will probably end up being about trans issues anyway), posters downplaying or denying violence against biological women bc it didn’t support an anti-trans agenda, and even advocating for things that would hurt and endanger biological women just as long it would hurt trans people too."

If you actually have seen any of these posts on Mumsnet, you should report them for removal. MNHQ will always delete transphobic content when asked.

And i have read the whole thread

I said something that wasn't completely shit on page 5

even advocating for things that would hurt and endanger biological women just as long it would hurt trans people

What on earth was that...that sounds dreadful

You opened with EVERY POST
Is vehemently ANTI TRANS
and you think that we are clinging to a GENDER BINARY when the opposite is true.

You're simply howling at the moon. My earlier point about the list of anti-stuff which could be levelled at you, was that it is as useless to call you those names as it was for you to call feminist posters anti-trans.

It's not possible to engage with a poster who just wants to accuse others of stuff they don't believe and haven't done.

There have been hundreds of posters like you before you exactly the same.
Those who genuinely want to challenge us (rather than just insult us or make false claims about us) take the time to understand our position so that they can refute it with a cogent argument.
Many of them stick around and get a good deal of respect. And many more actually change their stance when they have a decent grasp of the gender critical position.

I bet you a tenner's donation to a women's charity that you can't summarise accurately the gender critical position you think is in 'every post' that you apparently hate so much.

It's entirely possible that your sons will grow up thinking 'feminine traits' (or 'sexist stereotypes' as I might call them) are the very definition of what makes a person female. In which case you are very clearly aligned with both trans ideology and also the 1800s. Good for you.

Suited and booted I see it as a very long road. Equal pay is a no brainer. Sport is gonna be a tough one, though. I'm not sure how that would work, in all honesty. Changing rooms I think could be managed with security measures and cubicles. Shortlists and scholarships / rewards should be awarded on merit, surely. Refuges is another tough one, however there needs to be measures in place that mean both women and trans women have access to safe spaces. Like I have said previously, I don't have all the answers. I don't feel that searching for them is a crime that makes me unfeminist, though. This all needs sensible discussion.

i don't feel that searching for them is a crime that makes me unfeminist, though

I would say neither do i but there is really no point

Well Eyeroll, you've just shown you have no idea why there are separate awards for women, where there are separate sports categories for women, why there are women's educational institutions and why there are SEX-SEGREGATED intimate safe spaces for women.

Maybe reading up on the history of those would be an idea?

Assuming the ignorance of your opponents is ignorant.

I'm trying to understand both sides. I feel that is the civilised thing to do.

Apparently that makes me ridiculous. Why is it so wrong to want a proper discussion? All you are doing is reinforcing my feeling that no discussion is forthcoming.

koyaanisqatsi that's about the size of it.

Eyeroll your posts seem to imply that “I am the first feminist ever who has approached the trans issue with a solutions based approach”. You are totally naive if you believe that. Many feminists have started from your position and ended up being as “transphobic” as you have been with your solutions and realised they can go no where with their solutions based approach.

So, why do YOU think there are separate awards then Eyeroll.

Let me give you a hint: maybe it has something to do with the oppression women have historically suffered on the basis of their biology that has seen them excluded from education, work, societies, sports and all other aspects of society until very, very, very recently?

Of course I don't believe that, that is a massive assumption. You assume a stance of superiority because you believe your own hyperbole. Why is it not ok to still be thinking about things? Is that not the true nature of discussion?

Historical women's oppression is the shame of the human race. I still feel ill when I consider passing on that oppression to a different group!

I still feel ill when I consider passing on that oppression to a different group!

Men have never been oppressed. The very fact that women are being shut up, hounded out of their jobs, threatened with their life, their safety threatened, publicly and openly by men who say they are women shows you that men who say they are women are taking advantage of every privilege their SEX gives them!

I officially give up. You win! Congrat-u-fucking-lations. I clearly hate women and should hang myself post-haste.

It’s a real shame, because there really is no place online for moderates, or for open discussion where all opinions are permitted.

I don't know! Sometimes I think I must be in my own MN bubble. I have stated openly on loads of threads that I would be happy to agree that "trans women are women" if it was important to them, as a social nicety, the same way that I would be happy to respect anyone's religion. But I just don't support self ID of gender to equal/replace sex as a definition in law, and that biology is important to define what a "woman" is.

No one has jumped on me for saying that I'm happy to call trans women women, even though it's pretty much anti the gender critical argument. People have disagreed that they would feel happy to say the same. But I don't feel pushed out of the discussion. I am pretty moderate, in loads of ways. But I am also made to feel I am radical in loads of ways just for believing in biology. So all you can do is believe in your own position and listen to the arguments to make sure you are informed.

So I really WANT to hear the arguments FOR self ID. Why it's important - if it's not about bathrooms, just what exactly IS it about?

But no one ever seems to answer why. Apart from the subtext that it would be "nice" or "kind" etc. Which is irritating. Which leads to the "tone" OP and others complain about, I think...

Great post upthread by @DN4GeekinDerby.

I see no reason to consider or respect the assertion for self-ID until sufficient evidence is provided that it will be helpful and beneficial for trans people and wider society and not just people in power. Right now, the Tory chant to 'demedicalize' looks suspiciously like people who want to be seen as progressive and have a way to make cuts to services.

I think this is quite likely to be an outcome. But as 'gender dysphoria' is now not the preferred term for many trans people, who say it should not be a medicalised issue, perhaps it doesn't matter?

Except that it matters very much, of course, for access to hormones etc that will support transition...

I clearly hate women and should hang myself post-haste.

Nobody said that. But you have consistently refused to engage any issue with arguments. All you've given back to any question is hyperbole and vagueries.

From where I sit the eyerollery one did not refuse to engage with the issues. Are you sure you do not mean that eyeroller did not take rhetorical questions or declamatory statements as gospel?

I officially give up. You win! Congrat-u-fucking-lations. I clearly hate women and should hang myself post-haste.

You're a fine one to talk about hyperbole, aren't you? People disagreeing with your words doesn't actually mean they want you to die. Taken a leaf out of the TRA playbook?