To be worried about teenage boys?

[Summerisicumenin]

I am a HLTA in a secondary school. Naice area, very well thought of school and all that.

Teenagers seem to think that adults are all hard of hearing, and because I'm working over a range of classes, I often hear some "interesting" conversations.

Recently, however, I have been struck by the attitudes that seem fairly common amongst the boys.

For example, in the last few weeks I've heard the following, all from different groups of boys chatting in class

• a conversation on how stupid feminists are, discussion of an anti feminism YouTube video they all seem to have watched and swallowed whole, how feminists are thick, stupid, whores.
• one boy was talking about his mother - she earns 40k a year in a responsible, professional role. We are far from London and this is a very good wage in our area. Her son informed his friends that she was a lazy bitch, her wage was pathetic, and she was stupid for working for anything under 70k.
• porn videos they have watched
• one boy got a girlfriend. She allowed him to "finger her". On discovering her pubic hair, he told her "that's disgusting, shave it off". Loud agreement from his friends.
• discussion of a local news story about breastfeeding. Agreement that it's disgusting and women shouldn't do it in public.
• once or twice when a nearby girl has attempted to join the conversation she is jeered at and told to shut the fuck up.
• people on benefits mocked

These are all specific examples. If I were to list the throwaway comments regarding women and girls, I'd be here all day.

On top of this, I've noticed an increasingly dismissive attitude to female members of staff, and in class it's almost always boys who are rude, disrupt the class, and shout down other pupils.

Girls rarely speak in class. When they chat amongst themselves, it is normal stuff about their day, whereas many of the boys have a default attitude of furious and critical.

I don't want it to seem as though I have a downer on boys - I absolutely don't. I've encountered many more who are absolutely delightful young men, and a joy to work with. However it seems as though a significant and growing minority of boys are incredibly angry, rigid and sexist in their thinking, especially around women. I can't help but think a lot of it is down to porn. I don't remember hearing boys speak like that when I was a teenager, and if I did I would have challenged it. I had just as many male friends as female.

It worries me that these boys will become men in a few years, men with views that I thought were outdated long ago, and nobody is challenging them. Or helping them for that matter, because they don't seem very happy either

butty who said anything about writing boys off?

I work with teenage boys every day. I listen to their opinions. I guide them. I make jokes with them. I have a great relationship with most of them.

But I would far rather not listen to their sexist crap (which I pull them up on every time).

No-one is writing them off.

Even if they were, it doesn't seem to be affecting them since men are still in all the top positions in business.

the title of your post is bizarre

why are you "worried" about them? You should be worried about the consequences of their attitude, but, sheesh, don't worry about the effing boys and men. They'll be fine. They'll be President with these attitudes.

If you can hear it, why don't you challenge it at the time?

I would hate to work in a school nowadays. Boys were like it 10-15 years ago whilst I was at school but would be called out on it mostly by us gobby girls who weren't afraid of revenge via social media. The lack of power teachers have is depressing, I feel like they can't discipline anyone without fear of reprisal, because the students have all the power now or their parents kick off defending their entitled brats instead of backing staff up. My Indian friend is a teacher, a student was making racist remarks (his excuse was it was 'banter') so my friend said something back about his monobrow.....guess who go the shitty end of that stick.

Should we not focus on strengthening girls against this type of behavior and views? Trying to police what people think is never going to work.

As soon as these boys realise that their "girlfriends" aren't going to take any crap, the poor behaviour and eventually the views expressed will change

Yeah. Boys are bad and they grow into men who are worse.

Grrr

Also having a young boy, I do fear for the future, at 5 he is respectful and tries to be a 'gentleman' as per DP's example. But peer pressure and immaturity will inevitably come into it once he's older.
When we pass/sit by groups of disrespectful teens i.e smoking weed/swearing/generally being gross, I do make a very loud point of how I hope he doesn't turn out to be a reprobate like these sods and 'naughty' their behavior is (so far no response except apologies, perhaps because the bitch face is strong)

I can assure you that this absolutely did happen. It's interesting that some posters assume this must be unbelievable, and that teenage boys couldn't possibly talk like this.
As for challenging it, I have done at times, but not as much or as often as I would like, for a number of reasons. It depends on what I'm doing at the time, whether there is a teacher in the class, that sort of thing. I often don't have time to do more than a "that is not an appropriate topic of conversation in class/that is a rude comment". Teachers don't always hear what I hear, as they are working with pupils in a different way.

I did speak to the HOY about the boy who made the comment about what he did with the girl, however nothing came of it and the attitude was very much "boys will be boys". His uncle is on the board of governers, coincidentally

I'm impressed at posters who have experience of schools treating sexism the way they would racism. I have never worked in a school where that view was taken. I wish I did. Though I'm not sure many girls would report it as such.

I have worked with young people in different capacities for 12 years, and I do think something has changed. Teenagers have always been daft and attempted to shock, but there's an underlying dismissive viciousness which I feel is new

We should certainly teach girls that they don't have to tolerate this sort of sexual harrassment, and back this up by dealing with it severely when reported. And no you can't police what people think, but you can damn well police what they say in public.

I worry about them, because I don't think they are happy. It must be hard, being so full of bitter, confused negativity directed at the other half of the human race, and they're only kids. I know plenty of teen boys who are lovely, respectful, funny and witty without being offensive, hard working.

Yet the other type of not so nice boy seems to be the one who shouts the loudest and whose voice is heard

That's before you even get on to the subject of what it means for girls

It's rap and porn. It's also a phase. THere's a lot of posturing among teenagers, and because the prevailing culture is much more aggressive and confrontational, that's the vernacular they adopt. There's a coarsening of discourse generally, don't you think? Potty mouths everywhere.

And no, we shouldn’t be focusing on making girls stronger. We - and particularly men- should be focusing on ensuring that our boys grow up to be good, kind, strong, sensitive men so these misogynist attitudes are consigned to the dustbin of history.

Gosh am I completely blinkered? I would be absolutely devastated if my DS (aged 15) and his group of friends talked like this.

I would also absolutely hope that if this was heard in school it would be dealt with promptly.

Why didn't you do anything OP?

It's not "just a phase" though is it. The levels of misogyny and sexual vilence against women in society are sky high. Look at the recent cases in football/rugby. That's what so many of these lads grow up to become.

Seriously, all those saying "This is just boys being boys, the same old, same old", you need to read up. Because it isn't the same old, same old. There's a new threat in the shape of semi-organised online communities spreading some very serious misogynistic hatred. The very fact that it's "there" online means its doing harm in its own right - let's not pretend that abuse and threats on platforms from Twitter to Reddit aren't "real". But it's also spilling over into physical incidents of violence too.

violence obviously

And even if it was just “same old same old” don’t we want better than that?

My ds is 16 and I would be beyond livid if I thought him or his mates behaved like this. He has a good group of male and female friends as well as a girlfriend whom he treats with so much respect, he takes her home on the bus so she doesn't have to go alone, he stands up for girls when other lads are sexist to them etc. Not all teenage boys are like this honestly. However I agree too many of them are and it's time for things to change. One thing I have always done is challenged my son on even the tiniest hint of sexist behaviour from a very young age, I think it also helps that I am very assertive and seen as strong so he has a positive female role model.

DD, along with all the other girls, has suffered daily crap from teenage boys on the school bus. It’s very tricky as she and we worry that complaints result in complainer being ostracised. Complaints are taken reasonably seriously at school but parents just don’t seem to believe their sons behave like this so don’t take it seriously or just laugh it off as boys will be boys. DD just ignores and thinks they are beneath contempt.

I am actually more concerned about girls that my son hangs out with than his classmates in all boys school. When he was 11 at a primary school, he was harassed by a female classmate that insisted on sending him naked selfies and left him in tears.

Yep, when my twin boys started secondary the harassment from the girls was relentless, asking them to go out with them, asking to be kissed (and more!), following them around the playground making comments on how hot they were etc etc, they were 11 fgs. I dread to think what those same girls are up to now they are 13

I think that's an artefact of the fact that girls mature sooner than boys. Unfortunately, the tables soon turn... and they turn for life. That's why it's really invidious to compare the harassment of 11 year old boys by 11 year old girls to the persistent and structural harassment of women of all ages by men of all ages. Given that several of those 11-year old girls will have already been on the receiving end of wolf-whistling, comments and put-downs from older boys and men, not to mention the gendered prejudice they face if they have any academic, sporting, or career aspirations, it's not really the same situation. Because: power.

That is worrying but I do think teenage boys have actually always been like this to some extent and that the majority of them do grow out of it.
Remember you are hearing a conversation between boys who are trying to show off and impress each other. Or at the very least fit in with their peers. They are not likely to express a different opinion to the most dominant opinion of the group. So what you are hearing may not be what many of them actually do think deep down.
It takes kids a long time to have the confidence to express views which contrast with the views of the loudest and/or strongest member of their social circle.
It also take a long time to develop compassion and real understanding for the situations of others.
It also takes a while for boys to get over that phase where they do not have female friends.

Im sure some teenage boys are absolute horrors and go on to be horrible horrible men.....
But im equally sure that a lot of them you hear spouting bollocks like that when they are 13 years old will actually go on to become decent people.

You just arent going to hear the decency rise to the top in a conversation between a load of teen boys.

Oh yeah, it’s ok to harass 11 year old boys then, they and their parents should just shut up. Mumsnet is unbelievable. Do you live in a vacuum? Don’t you have fathers/brothers/husbands/sons? Are they all horrible human beings?

A friend's 14yr old DS has fallen out with his previously best friend over a speech the other boy gave at school about how women's rights need to be rolled back, and how feminists should be forced to marry men who can keep them in line. Apparently the (female) teacher did challenge these views at the time, but many of the boys backed him up.

I am deeply concerned about this strain of misogyny. I have 11yr old DS who is not like this, and he's finding it v tough at secondary school as he doesn't fit in (ie he's not a massive sexist) with the prevailing culture

I can't see anyone saying "all boys are horrible " are we reading the same thread? You seem intent on being offended on behalf of your sons