To be worried about teenage boys?

[Summerisicumenin]

I am a HLTA in a secondary school. Naice area, very well thought of school and all that.

Teenagers seem to think that adults are all hard of hearing, and because I'm working over a range of classes, I often hear some "interesting" conversations.

Recently, however, I have been struck by the attitudes that seem fairly common amongst the boys.

For example, in the last few weeks I've heard the following, all from different groups of boys chatting in class

• a conversation on how stupid feminists are, discussion of an anti feminism YouTube video they all seem to have watched and swallowed whole, how feminists are thick, stupid, whores.
• one boy was talking about his mother - she earns 40k a year in a responsible, professional role. We are far from London and this is a very good wage in our area. Her son informed his friends that she was a lazy bitch, her wage was pathetic, and she was stupid for working for anything under 70k.
• porn videos they have watched
• one boy got a girlfriend. She allowed him to "finger her". On discovering her pubic hair, he told her "that's disgusting, shave it off". Loud agreement from his friends.
• discussion of a local news story about breastfeeding. Agreement that it's disgusting and women shouldn't do it in public.
• once or twice when a nearby girl has attempted to join the conversation she is jeered at and told to shut the fuck up.
• people on benefits mocked

These are all specific examples. If I were to list the throwaway comments regarding women and girls, I'd be here all day.

On top of this, I've noticed an increasingly dismissive attitude to female members of staff, and in class it's almost always boys who are rude, disrupt the class, and shout down other pupils.

Girls rarely speak in class. When they chat amongst themselves, it is normal stuff about their day, whereas many of the boys have a default attitude of furious and critical.

I don't want it to seem as though I have a downer on boys - I absolutely don't. I've encountered many more who are absolutely delightful young men, and a joy to work with. However it seems as though a significant and growing minority of boys are incredibly angry, rigid and sexist in their thinking, especially around women. I can't help but think a lot of it is down to porn. I don't remember hearing boys speak like that when I was a teenager, and if I did I would have challenged it. I had just as many male friends as female.

It worries me that these boys will become men in a few years, men with views that I thought were outdated long ago, and nobody is challenging them. Or helping them for that matter, because they don't seem very happy either

I agree with OP. It has got worse and for those that think boys always talked like this to a degree maybe but it has taken a more sinister misogynistic tone which did not exist before. Talk to any youth workers, psychologists etc and they will say the effect of hardcore porn on young people particularly boys is alarming. They are viewing images that developmentally they are not ready for or able to reconcile and the effect is extremely damaging. The whats app messages between the Belfast rape accused is a case in point. if teenagers (mainly boys) are getting all their information on sexual relations from hardcore porn they are getting a very distorted messed up view. Can you imagine if boys only information about relationships was watching clips of domestic violence how outraged we would be, to me there is little difference. I am not being dramatic it is a big issue and as a mum of 3 girls it is frightening.

There was a conference in Ireland recently about changing the curriculum for sex education in schools with the main focus now on consent, respect what that means and so on and this is a direct result of these lines getting completely blurred

The general attitude sounds depressingly like what I remember from school in the 70s though obviously the details, like the pubic hair, are new. It was worrying then (as witness the number of men my age who did go on to assault women or at the very least make their lives difficult) and it is worrying now. Perhaps more worrying because of the graphic detail.

The best we can hope for is a concerted effort from parents, siblings, school, other adults to challenge this. If not only your mum but all your teachers, your sports coach, your Saturday job workmates and employer, all clamp down on it every time, if they all show they find it disgusting and unacceptable, then maybe, just maybe something could change.

I would report to the head that you feel there is an increasing problem. I would imagine that the school need arrange for a talk and some education on this subject. They need to challenge the misconception and the damage it is doing to girls and others.

It is not acceptable, it should never be acceptable something should and could be done.

We have a situation in our school where 12 year old boys think it is okay to call a girl a slut. Unbelievable as it is, this is happening absolutely everywhere.

"They will grow out of it because otherwise they won't have girlfriends! "

Really? Have you noticed the attitudes of plenty of adult men- manynof rgem with wives and girlfriends?

The girls are 12 by the way.

Sadly the US president talks exactly like this. It is a very worrying situation and exactly the reason my DDs went to all girl secondary schools. I agree that gently challenging them might be helpful.

I wonder if part of why it gets worse is that swearing is so ubiquitous, they have to go even worse in order to shock.

I think some boys would benefit from being able to leave school at 15 and be out working (learning a trade) and getting on with life. They are bored with school life and really don't want to be there. They fill their time with watching these you tube things and talking like that with their mates because they think it sounds cool - essentially acting immature because society is treating them immature.

The OP is a TA not a teacher, if that makes a difference

A HLTA will have the same amount of safeguarding/classroom control training as an actual teacher, especially since they occasionally have to run their own class. Therefore have the exact same responsibilities as teachers to pull up inexcusable behaviour and conversation, and report anything beyond their capabilities (this includes reporting any student talking about having sex or similar when underage).

I’m not sure I actually believe this happened, seems more like a stealth anti-porn thread to me.

And girls too!

I didn't have a very sheltered childhood - I went to the local, rough comprehensive, where attitudes to women were not exactly enlightened. However, I have for some time suspected that things are getting worse, and it's interesting to hear someone with anecdotal evidence that supports that. I think Youtube videos, and the spread of misogynistic hate via alt-right male empowerment channels on there is especially damaging, as is the existence of some of the forums on which young guys pos. If anyone is interested in this culture, Angela Nagel has written a short and very entertaining book on it called 'Kill All Normies'.

I used to work in a school and found that this attitude was composed largely of fear. They are trying to come to terms with things that they really don't understand (homosexuality, feminism, sex (that isn't porn) within a very limited framework of reference, So they insult, joke, are aggressively phobic about it, because they haven't got a clue what it really is, how it works, etc etc. This is why the attitude has always been so prevalent down the ages.

The answer is better education. Unfortunately they don't get it. Those who manage to 'educate themselves' as they get older, lose the attitude. Those who don't, well...

Girls being able to leave school at 15 and get on with life too I mean!!!

Sexist remarks should be deemed as serious as racist remarks and punished accordingly. This issue needs to be tackled head on and not tolerated. If I were a head teacher, I would tackle this issue in PSHE for all years and then issue a warning to everyone that remarks of this sort will be punished.

I think it's a potentially dangerous error to blame the current crop of horrible entitled men on 'porn'. The worst, most dangerously misogynistic online groups hate porn as well as hating women. (Men who are outspokenly opposed to porn have always been creepy as fuck and inclined to condescending misogyny, as well...)

Sex ed needs to focus more on consent, pleasure, mutuality than it currently does. But we also need to remember that teenagers often go through a phase of saying stupid, shitty, provocative things and quickly grow out of it, in many cases.

You need to tell them that the conversation is unacceptable in a classroom setting and has to stop. I've had to stop a conversation in a school setting and as I have the authority and presence, the boys engaging in it immediately stopped and apologised. It started off benign but quickly escalated, causing other boys (all boys in the room), discomfort which was clear to see. That's when I called a halt to it.

But I agree OP it is distressing to hear and witness such views.

Yeah, sure. Porn so good for society. Especially for teenagers. In fact, it should be part of PHSE.

I totally disagree with this. Would you say it if we were talking about racism I wonder?

If an institution (and that's exactly what a school is) suffers from this level of misogyny then this should absolutely be tackled - from the top down. Any institution that doesn't see this talk being widespread as a problem is institutionally sexist.

Schools should have a whole school policy on challenging and having zero tolerance towards sexism - a proper, working policy not just a paragraph somewhere. Then the OP could tackle these remarks when she hears then secure in the knowledge that she will be backed by senior staff and that the perpetrators will be dealt with seriously.

You heard all that, OP? Wow, they talk very openly in front of you

You need to report some of this to the safeguarding lead at the school!

I've heard worse than that on the bus *Pickwick". Unfortunately its not rare at all nowadays.

Of course if you work around students/pupils you hear their unguarded conversations! They don't all sit around at lunchtime speaking about their homework!

My dd's comprehensive does challenge this all the time, they are not allowed to use derogatory language about women/gay people/disabled people at all, and will get a behaviour point/detention for doing so. Her school is exceptionally proactive about bullying as well and it is taken very seriously. I do think this helps. I know some other schools are not the same.

It's not at all a case of 'boys being boys', you can see perfectly well by observing the girls that this is not how teenagers have to be! If they're socially inept it's because we are giving them miles of leeway in the expectation that they can't be anything other than socially inept. That's insulting to them and dangerous for everyone.
Not saying thanks as you pass through a door someone's holding for you, that's socially inept.
And do they grow out of it? Or do they grow up into squeaky clean students who may be more discerning about exactly where they broadcast their views but don't know what consent means, joke about rape and grope women in clubs? It's just less obvious. Of course they're not going to slip the mask in front of their mum or lecturers, but you don't have access to their WhatsApp do you.

I wish, I really fucking wish that my teachers had pulled the boys up when they talked like this. So many blind eyes turned, it was systematic, we just could not count on the teachers (not a teacher basher generally I promise, just talking about my own experience). The girls thought it was normal or that no one would really care/that there would be social repercussions if they 'made a fuss'.
In the end even the girls don't recognise this as wrong or harmful. 'It's just how boys are', it's something you have to factor in and accept when dating boys. This is when you're supposed to be learning boundaries which you put into practice in a few years once you've left home, ffs. How can they do that in this kind of environment (which I recognise completely and is absolutely typical btw)?

If you can get a string of 9-5 at GCSE and you also don't have some sort of developmental disorder you know that what you're saying is disgusting and you feel like the king of the world because despite saying things you know are disgusting no one dares challenge you.

Heard a horrifying stat at the last WPUK talk - 5,500 sexual offences reported in UK schools between 2012-15 of which 600 rapes (and that is those reported because they were recognised as such, not taking into account incidents which won't have been seen as inappropriate because this behaviour is so normalised). Not really the time to be complacent.

If they know (or suspect) that you can hear, are they trying to shock or provoke you? It would not be uncommon teen behaviour.

Jesus. Yanbu. I do think from things I’ve heard misogyny in schools is getting worse rather than better. Apparently up skirting (or sexual harassment) is pretty common place. I’m 30 and I went to two different secondary schools in different parts of the country with varying demographics and the boys at school wouldn’t have dreamed of talking like that, let alone in front of a staff member. Sure there’s always been a bit of ‘laddish’ behaviour in groups at school but I wouldn’t have described it as sinister. It HAS to be the influence of the internet surely? Parenting styles can’t have changed that much in 10/20 years? What really concerns me is the idea that a teenage boy would think he had the right to dictate what a girls body looks like/if she should shave etc. What the actual fuck? Any boy that got near a girl at that age in my day would have been thanking his lucky stars.