To think entry requirements to be a teacher should be higher

[totteringlump]

AIBU to think too many teachers (obviously not all) don’t have particularly good qualifications themselves and so struggle to teach the syllabus to the class? People are able to pass but not excel and these teachers often struggle to advise students about gaining entry to Oxbridge and other places plus about high paid careers.

If students don’t have this advice at home they cannot know.

£37,000? Where? London maybe? I have 9 years experience and don't earn this! Granted, I'm not a member of SLT, but none of the non-SLT, full time teachers I work with are on 37k.

@totteringlump the duties you are describing are the duties of a careers adviser not a teacher. Teachers are usually pretty poor at giving careers advice

I have had colleagues with not great uni degrees who were fab teachers. You have to know your strengths, though - one of those basically never taught A Level, even when HoD, because he knew he wasn’t the best placed academically for that level. Whereas the example of the EE teacher above, teaching top set kids, shows a school not being sensible about its timetabling or more likely not having any choice thanks to the fact the job is becoming less and less appealing and teachers will become less and less qualified.

I’ve had pupils ask me about my degree etc. and they often do find it reassuring or encouraging to know you are quite expert in the content. The delivery and behaviour management comes less naturally to me but over the years I’ve got a lot better at behaviour management (though rusty at the moment). This is a sine qua non when it comes to teaching, and more important than a really good degree, in my opinion.

I agree that teachers aren’t always/often good at careers advice. There often isn’t enough steering of pupils away from pointless courses which will not get them where they want to be (e.g. Law degree at low ranking uni - pupil thinks they will get a job in a city firm but in reality a CV will be binned immediately). As I’ve got older I’ve realised my knowledge about universities etc. is hopelessly outdated, though, except for in my degree subject. Careers advice should really be done by a specialist but I’m not sure how managed schools can afford them. Form tutors who may be asked about uni and career should steer pupils to the subject teacher and careers lead and not misinform pupils as sometimes happens.

But teachers do need to recognise that, in most cases, they will be paid more than most of their students parents are paid.

What does that have to do with it?

I was a teacher, now retired. I did well, liked it, was promoted steadily, and was well suited to the work, it seems. If I were starting out again, I would not be allowed to teach, as I do not have an "O" level" equivalent in Maths. Nor, as it happens, in science or a language. I entered teaching as an untrained (art college) graduate, as one could then. The point is that at no point did I ever find that better qualified teachers were " ahead of me" in the things that mattered. In fact, as long as I was only working with Year 8 or below, I think that my teaching of maths was helped by the fact that I have never found it easy myself. In theory, we'd all like to see a better qualified profession. of course we would. But qualities of stickability, humour, compassion, team work, strength of will ( yes, you DO need that) count for more than how well you did when you were a child.

Pray do tell what is wrong with my grammar and punctuation.

Ahh, but you were the one pillorying the grammar and spelling of others in that very post - look carefully! I'm sure you'll spot them eventually.

£37000 ish is the mean not the median. The median is not skewed by higher salaries, that’s why it’s used.
CBA to check but the median is about £28000, not far off the median national salary. However the DFEE at one point quoted the £37000 figure as “the average”, either through ignorance or aiming to deceive. It was later quoted by Nicky Morgan, who should have known better but was probably trying to cast striking teachers as baddies.
I retired from secondary five years ago on the top of the pay scale, earning about £38000 (with additional management points taking me up to about £42000). Most teachers are on what I assume is still the main pay scale, earning far less than £37000.

...top of the Upper pay scale...

Why do teacher threads always contain grammar wars? I imagine the staff room a terrifying place, do you correct each other's emails and post-it note messages?

Only the ones where people berate the spelling and grammar of others and are asking for it!

I agree with you
My friend teaches an A level subject that she got a piss poor degree in and by her own admission she is regularly aware that the brightest students are reading books and articles that are beyond her.
She has told me that she knows the stuff in the syllabus but not much extension to it nor issues around it.

Fine for those who are average but useless for the more academic kids who aren’t getting challenged or the opportunity to ask more questions.

One of my kids had a primary teacher who had appalling spelling and grammar. Yes it may not have been an issue for the six year olds but it was terribly embarrassing to read her class letters.

I'm a primary teacher with a 2:1 (BA hons), a PGCE and an MA in education. Most of my friends have similar qualifications. Are you suggesting a PhD on top?

I wasn't suggesting it was either/or. Just that qualifications do not dictate how good a teacher a person is. Teaching is a craft. You learn how to teach, behaviour management is a big part of it. Sound subject knowledge is important. However, the key to teaching is knowing how to present the information in a way that enables the pupil to learn. A good teacher can do this in many different ways, focusing on the pupil and how they learn. Understanding what their blocks to learning are, how homelife/SEN/behavioural issues might impact and finding ways for them to access the lesson regardless. You teach skills, then mastery of those skills, then you help them develop expertise. Being an expert yourself doesn't equate to being a brilliant teacher. More work is needed training teachers to teach, not just insisting they have expert subject knowledge. Most teachers teach more than one subject anyway. Teachers teach children, not subjects.

The other week someone posted on here that they worked with English teachers who had never heard of George Eliot.

Part of the problem is that once you're employed as a teacher you get told what to teach. It may or may not be something you've studied yourself. You don't get the option to say: Sorry but I don't know anything about that topic. If you don't know it you have to teach yourself enough to teach the class. I've taught A-level and degree-level classes where I was literally one week ahead of the students and learning as I went. It would be less of an issue if more funding was available for CPD and updating skills etc. As it is, you're often just allocated a class and have to teach it to the best of your ability.

Too many people (of all occupations) have an appalling general knowledge so it's hardly surprising that some teachers have the same problem. I'd expect a teacher (at primary) who is teaching about the art history of the Vikings to have read up about it beforehand so they have some knowledge of the subject.

Not that I've seen art history of the Vikings taught of course, perhaps teachers do postgrad courses in such relevant matters.

Feenie - nope. I'm on an Internet forum too, not in my professional role, so I don't feel as though I need to speak in the way that I would if I were teaching.

I'm not overly bothered if an internet random GF thinks I have poor grammar and punctuation to be honest. I have GCSEs at A* in English Language, English Literature and English Speaking and Listening, I have A Levels at As in English Lit and Language, a first class degree the highest graded PGCE that was possible and a Masters in Education. I'm the Language and Literacy Coordinator at my current school and I have won awards for my teaching. Your opinion really doesn't make a difference to my life

I'm a teacher in a state secondary, I went to Oxford. Most of what I teach I've learnt since my degree. My degree content barely touches the range of stuff I have to do on a daily basis, not to mention the people skills and boundless enthusiasm required to teach 30 students at once.

Oh no, I missed a comma there though! Take all my academic achievements away as I'm not good enough to teach!

I did some volunteering in schools when I was on gardening leave and there were certainly teachers who though very highly skilled at teaching in difficult circumstances were sometimes teaching at the limit of their knowledge. I think it only becomes a problem when there is no one with really good subject knowledge at a particular school to help with STEP papers, Oxford entrance exams and admissions interviewed or to stretch the more able pupils in general.

The first step would obviously have to be to make the job 1000x more appealing though. Better pay, better working conditions, more autonomy.

I also think there's definitely a place for talented teachers who don't necessarily have as good subject knowledge. I have a PhD and excellent subject knowledge and could take on a bright A-level class no trouble but would be worse than useless in some of the lower sets with kids with challenging behaviour and real learning obstacles.

It's more than a bit daft to post berating colleagues' grammar whilst effing up the same things in your own post though. I wouldn't have dreamt of pointing out anything if you hadn't, not would I comment on your subsequent posts. It was quite funny in that context. I'd have just taken it on the chin and moved on, if I were you.

Nor!

Bollocks.

I have a PhD, and in work in Alternative Provision. Good subject knowledge is needed even there

You still haven't told me what I "effed up".

I didn't pull anyone on this thread up. I said the standards on my course were. shocking, which they were. Even if my spelling and grammar was terrible, it would still be a fact.