To think entry requirements to be a teacher should be higher

[totteringlump]

AIBU to think too many teachers (obviously not all) don’t have particularly good qualifications themselves and so struggle to teach the syllabus to the class? People are able to pass but not excel and these teachers often struggle to advise students about gaining entry to Oxbridge and other places plus about high paid careers.

If students don’t have this advice at home they cannot know.

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

I don't think a first in Physics will help make you a better careers advisor TBH.

totteringlump

You don't NEED top grades for teaching, no. That's because the profession, like some but not many others, requires a balance of a broad mix of skills. You need to be knowledgeable ENOUGH to teach well, but you need to be patient, nurturing, firm, stubborn, organised, dedicated, morally reasonable, flexible, administratively-minded, idealistic, pragmatic, able to spell as well as count (reasonably), able to find the good in people.

Need I go on?

We are simply looking for too many qualities to reduce the job description to a qualification.

Same with any other complex role pengggwn

At first I assumed that you got a first class degree as your post is about poorly qualified teachers.

Now after reading your post where you accuse PP of "boasting" about their qualifications, I am not so sure.

totteringlump

According to you. Demonstrate, please.

I got a 2:1. Most good graduate professions demand the same. I think we should, too.

Point is, if a sixteen year old choosing A levels doesn’t have advice from his family, where can he get it from?

Many do A level Law thinking that’s the ideal route to a Law degree, for instance.

They can go to the website of universities they're interested in, they can order prospectuses, they can go to careers talks at local universities... My DD built a spreadsheet in yr11 of which degree courses needed which A-levels and what grades to help her choose her 3rd A-level. Frankly if they can't manage to figure it out in the internet age, they probably shouldn't bother.

Yes, I agree that help with Oxbridge applications is important and probably skews the intake demographic, but we don't need the teachers themselves to be Oxbridge grads.

A good degree doesn't make a good teacher though. I'm quite sure the primary teaching friend I mentioned earlier got a 1st class degree in primary education but her spag is poor. I got a first class maths degree but I'd be a dreadful teacher, I'm too introverted. It's right that teachers are educated to degree level but you'd have to be seriously dedicated to take a teaching job over a job in the city paying twice as much. Whilst teachers conditions are so bad you won't attract the top graduates.

I got a 2:1. Most good graduate professions demand the same. I think we should, too.

And if supply of teachers outstripped demand, no doubt we would. But it doesn't. So we can't.

Part of the reason you need top qualifications for Dentistry/Medicine/Law/Veterinery Science is because they are so competitive to get in to. Huge numbers of applications because they are seen as professions and well-paid and respected. Teaching qualifications are not - apart from Primary age whete they do get good numbers applying. Our local teaching schools had the following places available and recruitment figures last year
School Places Available. Number Recruited
A. 120. 55
B. 44. 21
C. 46. 24
D. 34. 21

All secondary. Can not recruit candidates. Secondary PGCEs in lcal universities have been reduced significantly beacuse of the SCITT, School Direct and Teach First programmes- but they are struggling to recruit high quality candidates across the board.

I have recently started doing some part-time work again supporting teacher training participants, NQTs and teachers in their first couple of years. Some of the quality is terrible- particularly Teach First and PGCE. SCITT and School Direct is stronger in my experience and I have met some fantastic participants and young teachers but also far too many who should never have been accepted for training or allowed to pass the training programme.

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Oh no! not that word again....where's #MirriVan

The irony is of course is that all those first class honour/PhD studying students who are deciding not to teach were themselves mostly taught by teachers who probably weren't first class honour/PhD candidates themselves but still managed to inspire, encourage and teach their pupils to exceed their own academic qualifications.

something for you to think about OP as you enjoy the sunset from your ivory tower.

@Flutist you're absolutely right. The pay is poor considering all the hours we put in, and the pressure is immense. A number of teachers I know are on anti-depressants as a result of workplace stress.

Teachers aren't paid peanuts.

Median teacher salary is £37,000. £37k is more than 75% of incomes in the UK.

It's perfectly reasonable to say that they should be paid more. But its not reasonable to say £37k is peanuts.

What I’m saying is that many teachers will not know how to advise, steer and guide students towards qualifications and courses that will ultimately make them the top earners.

The bus only has one front row, are teachers meant to guide everyone towards it? Is making pupils top earners the teachers' job? Are they even career advisers?

Guiding students towards top earnerdom could be done with two tables; table 1: jobs sorted by salary, table 2: A levels required for university entry for courses qualifying for jobs listed in table 1.

Teachers are educators; a role which requires lots of skills. Many of these skills cannot be measured easily. This is a moot point anyway, we have too few teachers, not too many.

You are asking for different things.

Unlike some on here, I would agree with the need for decent careers advice. I come from a working class background in the north and it is still the case that similar people can not have a clue about what's out there or how to get on to it. It's no good just saying 'look on the internet': you need to know what you are looking for.

However who says that that needs to come from teachers? You want them to be expert careers advisors as well as academic subject experts? Why not get some actual trained career advisors in?

TheLastSaola

That is the most a classroom teacher (who doesn't move into management) can be paid. It isn't 'peanuts', no, but, in comparison to many graduate professions that reward on the basis of experience, not progression into management, it isn't very competitive.

As a reception teacher I can assure you I’m not steering children towards highly paid jobs. I’m trying to build character and resilience in my children, as well as hoping they become well rounded human beings who can positively contribute to society. Please remember that some educators come out with firsts from oxbridge but actually have no ability to connect with children and teach. Teaching is not an easy career choice and you have to enjoy it to make an impact.

£37k is more than 75% of incomes in the UK.
As a whole, including the incomes of people with zero qualifications. But the average salary for graduates is undoubtedly a lot higher. Teaching doesn't compare well to other graduate professions. It depends on the subject too - a Philosophy graduate might not have lots of better paid options but a Maths graduate will.

What I’m saying is that many teachers will not know how to advise, steer and guide students towards qualifications and courses that will ultimately make them the top earners.

So everyone in your world would be a top earner? I wonder who works for the top earners? who drives the bus/Rolls that gets #TopEarner to work? who looks after #TopEarner when she/he falls ill?

It is the collective effort of teachers at every level including university, parents and the individual's own determination and diligence that results in a top earner. Teachers can guide and steer all they like towards good qualifications. Wether they will become top earners is down to the individual and opportunity.

Teachers are not paid peanuts, nor are they monkeys. The teachers I know aren't particularly wanting to be paid more, they'd just like less paperwork and for the government not to move the goalposts or bring out a new initiative every 5 min.

Very much depends on how headteachers view the subject. If the head values the subject eg Maths, you’re sorted as a Maths head of department. Looking at all the hundreds of adverts I’ve seen recently, it varies massively. My headteacher removed a room, a teacher, a lesson a week, my office, my second in charge because he didn’t value my subject. Nothing personal. I left for a job with fewer students, less money.

As an Head of department, the added responsibility (TLR-teaching and learning responsibility) varies from about £2000 to up to £13000 (rare) same size schools, similar job description. A ‘good’ head of department payment, IMO, is TLR 1B, over £9000. In my current school, the TLR is 2B, about £4442. Money is definitely a consideration.

You’re right about the new initiatives, tho. If I have to attend any more of the utter bollocks trainings which aren’t improving my teaching or helping the children learn, I’m going to get very pissed off. I’d rather be planning/marking.

Pengggwn

Most graduate professions do require moving into management to reach higher salaries.

And it's the median salary of all teachers in the state system: so includes heads, deputy heads, advanced skills teachers, extra responsibilities like SENCOs, London weighting etc. A quick Google shows a BBC article from 2008 explaining why the median then (as now) is close to max for a classroom teacher.

Higher salaries might well attract better candidates. I certainly earned more after leaving teaching than in it. But teachers do need to recognise that, in most cases, they will be paid more than most of their students parents are paid.

Hmmm. I sort of see your point. It does depend on where you work though doesn't it? Schools vary so much. I have a 2.1 and a PGCE . I honestly think I have very strong behaviour management, I can command a classroom. But my SPAG does need checking! I blame this on my early 90s education. I know of teachers with 1st and Masters who have riots in their classroom. Too academic for lots of comprehensive kids! ... I have also continued with a genuine interest in my subject and lots of relevant CPD. Many dont bother.

The govt. are lowering the bar though not raising it. Unqualified teachers all over the place!

I am torn on this subject.
I'm a primary teacher. I work with many fantastic teachers and have also worked with some not so fantastic.
I definitely don't think the standard of degree or the establishment it came from is a deciding factor, and agree the best academics don't necessarily make good teachers. There is a lot more to it, and in primary especially, the "soft skills" are probably more important.

However I have a DD in yr 13. Her English Literature teacher last year was struggling. She was brand new to the school so we cut some slack, gave her some time to settle in etc, but by the end of the first term it was clear that things weren't right. She didn't seem to know how to teach. Played the same Internet quiz game every lesson, got details wrong about the text (even in her marking) so by Christmas I made the decision to approach the head of English and just let them know my (and my daughter's) concerns. It turns out most other parents of that class had already done the same.
She also LOVED to chat and told them most of the details of her life (some not entirely appropriate) I'm guessing as a way of delaying actually having to teach them anything.
She told DD's class that her degree was in English, and that she had only graduated that year, so it was clear she'd had no teacher training.
She also told them which university she had attended, and being in the process of university applications themselves, the students didn't take long to realise that the entry requirements for her English degree were EE.
So it's fairly safe to say she probably didn't get much higher than that in her own A levels, and yet here she was trying to teach a top set A level literature class, most of the dc predicted A/A*
From a parents point of view that just isn't good enough.
The class ended up with a different teacher for half their lessons, and scraped through the year. DD dropped the subject after AS unfortunately as she just couldn't risk the same happening in year 13.