Leaving London

[Sonotcivil]

Hi in a serious mess about this, I'm so confused on whether to leave London or not.
Background : grew up in small insular town in lincolnshire. Left at 18 and moved to London working with the civil service.
I'm now 24, in a relationship on about 35k a year in the civil service.

My issue is I want to start a family in a few years time and London is just so expensive. Me and my partner both earn ok money but renting in London is he'll, and would struggle to get a mortgage and the I don't want to be in my eyeballs in debt worth millions the.
However I love all London has to offer and think it could be an amazing place for a kid to grow up and live.
My job restricts me to some cities if I move, it can be Norwich, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Cardiff or Edinburgh.

Any help appreciated

sonotcivil I lived in London for 20 years, had a family there.
Left 8 years ago and relocated to Manchester.
Having children was a game changer. I stopped hanging out in Soho and rarely ventured out of SW18. I love the culture of Mancester, having North Wales and the Lakes, Yorkshire accessible.
The children are thriving. I feel it is safer for them. Much better choice of school. Swapped a3 bed flat for a 5 bed house.

I couldnt go back to London (not just because I’m priced out) but I wouldn’t want to. I did my time and it served me well, but I am extremely happy here.

Also to second a previous poster we do regularly go into town for museums, meet friends, see shows. Although plenty of Londoners do get the tube with a buggy but not during rush hour obviously. I think public transport is one of London’s best assets.

OP can you say roughly what part of London you're in now?

If you're thinking of DC in the next few years, I would highly recommend the area just beyond Richmond. Very green, the Thames is absolutely beautiful for walks and the whole area is "nappy valley." Easy access into town, but with young kids you tend not to want to be in Covent Garden!
Richmond has it all with a London vibe. All the shops you need are in Kingston. There are places like Teddington, Whitton, even St Margaret's where you can get so much more for your money, just because it's the other side of the river.
We live a bit further in - Chelsea, Barnes, Fulham, Putney area is where we circulate around these days with the different schools etc, but I would be fine moving out that way too.
Whatever price you buy a flat for, you will never have to worry about negative equity in London. Our house doubled in value in under 10 years. This doesn't really happen in other areas. Even if the housing bubble has burst now, it's still a different economy in London when it comes to property and you need to be in it to benefit.
The North is noticeably colder and wetter and this, for me, would rule out living there because it really affects your mood and ability to be out and about. The weather in London is bad enough!
I'm sure there are more reasonably priced areas in North London too which are up and coming but relatively cheaper. Areas change and it's about buying in at the right time.
In West London, you could try Hanwell rather than Ealing, for instance. Not all of London is hustle bustle - you can be surrounded by greenery but still get the vibe, the diversity and the cafe life, etc. You never feel isolated with small kids in London. You are not restricted to the car to get about and when they are teens you do not become a taxi service!

Errr... I lived in London for 6 years! I love it and will always live close to it, but I also want to be able to afford to live and not be shackled to a mortgage of £2.5k plus per month. I’m not anti London but I don’t envy my friends’ lives. The only ones I do think have the best of it is the couple where they earn £800k between them. They truly live the dream - 4 bed house in Richmond, can afford to do whatever and go wherever they want. They get the best out of London. All our friends in the 90-200k between them (ie a really good wage anywhere else!) have had to sacrifice things (socialising, meals out, travel, hobbies) because of crippling mortgages to live somewhere liveable with children.
When I lived in London, it was in house shares in Islington and shoreditch and then Hammersmith and it was brilliant. But when we looked at what we could buy, it was a one bed in a Ropey zone 3 area. And we would have to give up all the things that make the city so fantastic. Much prefer travelling in for 35 mins at the weekend to enjoy it instead and have the money to do so!

Whatever price you buy a flat for, you will never have to worry about negative equity in London.

Lots of Londoners spent a large portion of the nineties in negative equity. The last ten years has been exceptional, but it doesn't mean that a crash can't happen.

I agree with Limoncello, and live in one of the areas she's mentioned. Just one thing to add: Crossrail opens soon, and that's really going to change the geography of what's commutable. You're young, so I'd wait - places like Taplow are going to start looking very appealing soon.

I'm wondering whether you are trying to control too many variables at once. Why not work from what you know (loving your current job and life in London) and make one change at a time?

I think your next shrewd move would be to try to get onto the property market in London. I know that is difficult but if you can do it, you'll be better placed financially in the future whether you have a family and/ or decide to move or to stay.

We bought our first flat 14 years ago, after renting in London for nearly 5 years. In hindsight it was still relatively easy to buy then; but at the time we still felt we were paying astronomical prices for not very much and I wished we had been quicker off the mark.

I'd also like to echo others who said that you just can't predict what family life will be like for you, and therefore where you'd like to be... not now, while you are still some way off from that.

@sonotcivil

I moved to Edinburgh, then Milan, then settled in the northwest.

For context, my one bed flat in zone 2 cost the same as my six bed home bythe beach. It's startling!

That said, I love London dearly and need a regular fix. Watching marathon right now and I get a lump in my throat seeing the landmarks.

I am from the north, I wouldn’t go to any of the cities mentioned because of the weather (and I’m a hard northern lass).

I love London and love bringing my kids up here but we managed to buy 12 years ago.

I would stay, have fun and decide later-you don’t have to decide now.

I'm never stuck for ideas what to do on weekends

This shit baffles me. I lived in cities for years and now rurally, and have never struggled to find stuff to do with my kids out here.

OP I think you should wait a few years, enjoy everything that London has to offer, maybe even have a baby here and make a decision after the first year as a parent.

I love raising a child in London but I am extremely fortunate to be financially comfortable, own a house in zone 3 and not work, so we can do the museums etc and travel on the tube at non-peak times. If I couldn’t afford that lifestyle here I would go somewhere I could.

Also don’t underestimate the value of having grandparents nearby and family childcare options. It’s all very well living in London but an extra £50 or more on top of a night out to pay for a babysitter really adds up, and that’s if you have the energy to go out in the first place! That’s why I think you should have a baby here then decide, the perks of moving to Leeds or wherever will seem more appealing then I think.

MrsDesireeCarthorse

tbf your probably really right. Most of the stuff we do in town is with friends & once you have the company it doesn’t really matter where you are.

South east London there are still places where you can buy a 3 bed house for under 500k. Ok so they are not the most desirable/trendy parts but all of London is gentrifying over time and can be in Lon Bridge/Cannon St in 20 mins. We are really happy with our 3bed with garden and it cost under 450k recently. Had a flat as first step onto the property ladder before.

I would consider Edinburgh as another capital city as it were but don't think any of the others would feel big enough for me. I hear good things from friends who live in Bristol wrt a buzzing foodie scene.

Also property is cheaper but I paid a fortune for breakfast/brunch in Manchester recently so not sure everything else is!

I don't regret my decision in the slightest- 4 kids later and I'm loving every second of watching them grow into little city people with a much greater understanding and acceptance of different cultures then I had at their age. I also love that we're never ever stuck on ideas for how to fill our weekends- there's always 72819172 different child orientated activities to choose from

Cities outside London are exactly the same in this respect and there's the added bonus that people on normal incomes can also afford to buy houses or rent somewhere affordable, which is fairly high up the priority list for most people.

I would consider Edinburgh as another capital city as it were but don't think any of the others would feel big enough for me

That's strange because I live in Leeds and the first time I went to Edinburgh, I was surprised about how small and quiet it was compared to Leeds.

Personally I think you get a better "city lifestyle" living 20 minutes from the middle of Manchester than an hour from London. In the former situation I'd be able to get into the city on a whim, in the evening or at the weekend, go to bars, galleries and theatres etc. In the latter case I'd never bother, realistically. London may be the biggest city, but the likes of Manchester will still be more urban than rural Lincolnshire!

And if the London weighting on your salary is only about 5k there's no point commuting in from the likes of MK. That would wipe the whole 5k out in one go. Better to take the salary hit and have a shorter, cheaper commute somewhere else in the regions.

We had the same thing, heart broken to have London but had to to be able to afford a family. Moved to Oxfordshire because not too far from London for visits :-)

Second @Limoncell0 - if you can afford around Richmond/Twickenham, that is a fantastic area. We used to rent there and loved it and it has only improved in the decade or so since we lived there.

Don't do it. I left London to have children and regret it massively but can't afford to get back there. I miss it every day - it's a physical ache. We have a lovely house minutes from the sea in a beautiful village and a big, gorgeous garden. But I'm devastated my daughter won't be able to grow up in London.

I've been in London for 20 years now, got two kids but my eldest is coming up to Secondary school soon. I have a 4 bed house in East London but i'm concerned about the violence and knife crime in London. I can't keep my son indoors for all his teenage years but the thought of him hanging out on the streets of London like kids do fills me with dread. I think I want out of London, I would love to relocate to a buzzy small city but this seems unlikely without jobs to go to. Brighton sounds like the ideal choice for you as near to family to help out with childcare as well

I’d rather live close in to a city centre like Leeds than in Bedford, Northampton, or other commutable small town to London.

I think commuting when you have small kids would be hell. As your DP works from home he can presumably do nursery pick ups? and bed time when the transport seized up. Many commuting families seem to depend on havjng a SAHP.

Also the travel costs can be astronomical.

You are on an excellent salary for a 24 year old. Go for some City Break weekends in possible cities and see how you feel.

I thought Edinburgh was almost pushing London for property?

I love havjng teens in London. Oddly it is cheap: they are independent, no Mum Taxi, travelling on their free Zip cards. Loads for them to do, also free. If they aren’t involved in tne involved groups they are not involved in knife crime. A very rare involvement-free murder can happen anywhere. Where my brother lives teens kill each other on country roads in illegally driven illegally suped-up cars.

You are young, childless and rent! So nothing needs to be set in stone.

Move around, try living in different areas of London.

FWIW I was born and bred in London. I wouldn't leave London but I did move out. Where I live now is zone 5 but it's less than 20 minutes into kings cross. Lots of people here go into London for the night life and it's often quicker than going more locally.

My first thought is that you are still really young, your career and job prospects could move upwards very fast in London. And you have plenty of time to start a family.
London is a fabulous place in your 20's with no responsibilities.
However, London isn't easy with children if you're just about coping financially and accommodation is smaller than you'd like.
In your position, I'd give London a few more years, enjoy it, go for promotions, work hard. Get yourselves in the best possible position.

I'm moving out of London after 30 years, mainly for more family support.
I was very lucky that my career moved quickly and I've benefited massively cos I bought property early on. But I've loved London, I'll miss it, it really is one of the best cities in the world.

I moved to London (from one of the cities on your list!) when the DCs were young 9and for a civil service job). Have never regretted it. I am in the private sector now earning a lot more and was able to buy a house a few years ago (unfortunately only in zone 4!) - but can get to the City or Whitehall in 20 - 25 minutes - and actually enjoy the commute. London offered the DCs amazing opportunities and have no regrets - they are very grateful! I am now planning on moving overseas to work for a few years atm - mainly to be able to pay off the mortgage and come back to enjoy early retirement fully in London! Looking around house prices in London appear to be falling - as others have said I would say hang fire for a bit.