Leaving London

[Sonotcivil]

Hi in a serious mess about this, I'm so confused on whether to leave London or not.
Background : grew up in small insular town in lincolnshire. Left at 18 and moved to London working with the civil service.
I'm now 24, in a relationship on about 35k a year in the civil service.

My issue is I want to start a family in a few years time and London is just so expensive. Me and my partner both earn ok money but renting in London is he'll, and would struggle to get a mortgage and the I don't want to be in my eyeballs in debt worth millions the.
However I love all London has to offer and think it could be an amazing place for a kid to grow up and live.
My job restricts me to some cities if I move, it can be Norwich, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Cardiff or Edinburgh.

Any help appreciated

Mathanxiety. I know but I really need to decide within a few months whether I want to move or not. So for at least another 2 years we wouldn't be trying to conceive so I still want a life .

My god this is hard, I feel Leeds pulling at my heartstrings but London is just a world class city...

I live in commuterville and I would say don't do it. It suits us perfectly, I keep my job in London which I love (just down the road from you), but our priorities are nice house, space for a big dog, easy access to countryside. The obvious downside is that commuting takes a good chunk of a civil service salary.

Most of the people I know here moved from London, and no-one ever goes to London to socialise (by which I really mean for any non-work reason) more than a couple of times a year. Yes, it's easy to get there, but 30-45 mins on the train turns in to over an hour door to door, plus fare for the non-commuter, plus rushing to get the last train home at midnight. If you just love going to the museums, you can do that, but If you love the daily hustle and bustle of living in a city, move to another city.

It's highly unlikely that you will be able to buy a family home in London on civil service salaries without considerable family money. Consider also that when you have kids you are unlikely to both wanting to be flogging your guts out servicing a massive mortgage either. One or both of you will want to have some parental leave, and cut down your hours.

Thepeopleverus. Thanks, yes I do like the hustle and bustle of city life and would max live out to zone 3 in london.

It's just so hard to choose. London has some of the best museums in the country. Has top quality facilities. Lots of unis. Lots of job opportunities. All stuff I wouldn't want my kid to miss out on in future.
However like I've said cost is so prohibitive.

Urrgghh decision decisions

Bettyfood. That's correct we really wouldn't be able to. Which is so sad, I really need to think is spending so much in London worth it when if I went to Leeds or Manchester arc living is cheaper...

Op, you have these things called "weekends", "holidays" and "trains", you know!

I left London.

When I need my fix, I go back. It's not like you'll be locked out, apart from property market, I assume!

GeTERFuck.
I do realise yes . But it's never the same as living there is it? It's such a hard choice...
Yes definitely locked out of the market.
Where did you move to?

Thanks for the advice so far do keep it comjng

You are only 24 and already on a good salary. And I think people now
first get on the property ladder on average at 40 now in london.
Why not use this time to explore cheaper parts of london.
When I was 24 I'd only just finished uni and was temping. Bought London house when I was 32 and now have two kids. Love being in london with babies, there is so much to do and people in the same boat. We talk about moving out sometimes but enjoy what we have too much just yet.

I think you’re rushing yourself and you don’t need to. You are not ready to leave London yet.

You are only 24. Stay in London a few more years. IMO you have until your first baby is about 2/3 and then you would be better off in place somewhere before primary school admissions. But that could be 6/7/8 years away yet.

Don’t make a hasty decision when you don’t need to.

My advice - don’t leave London when you are childless. You say you need to decide in the next 2 months but do you?

Children change you. You’ll know what to do then. In the meantime enjoy London and everything you can do without kids!

My partner also works remotely
If his job is London-based you need to consider what you'd do if that job were to end and you were based miles away from London. Job-hunting outside London is very tough.

These threads always make me think 'how often to people who live in London with young children really do all these things that they claim they cannot live without and wrongly think do not exist elsewhere in the country'?

Probably not that often once they are in the grind of working and looking after young children. I really can't see the point of living in London unless you earn megabucks and/or have massive family support. Housing is always going to be a struggle and expensive. Places like Cambridge are probably nearly as expensive, plus you have travel costs on top.

On your salaries (I know you would lose a few £k London weighting) you would have a great life in a northern city. You could rent or buy a nice city centre apartment if you want to do the city living thing. A nice house in a thriving suburb like Horsforth or Chapel Allerton would probably be in reach if your partner also earns a similar amount.

You can be in London in under 2 hours from Leeds so even a day trip is accessible and if you sign up for the offers on the website, you can get tickets from £10-20 return. Leeds has great shopping, restaurants and arts, city parks on the outskirts (Roundhay, Temple Newsham, Lotherton Hall) etc. Manchester is less than an hour away by train, York even closer, both with lots of great things to do.

People always mention the museums, but if you are outside central London, you are probably not much closer to the big museums than you would be to the northern museums from Leeds. There's the Royal Armouries, Railway museum in York, National Mining Museum, Imperial War Museum North and the National Media museum all less than an hour from Leeds plus a whole host of smaller attractions like Eureka at Halifax, Yorkshire Sculpture Park, loads of small local industrial type museums, all sorts.

There are jobs outside London. Lets stop peddling this myth that there aren't.

Leeds is a big centre for finance and law, there's probably similar going on in other big cities. Plus big companies are realising that London is beyond full and just unaffordable and putting people off. Over the next few years the trend to move offices out of London is likely to accelerate.

Stay in London. Your posts exude dread at having to leave - so don't! You're still very young. Even if you had kids you could move later

I would choose either Manchester for the culture or Norwich as easier to visit friends in London.

We just had a meal with some friends of ours with two kids in a two bed flat in Sw London. On about 100k between them and flat cost £550k. They don’t have shops and facilities near them even though it’s a 15 min walk to Clapham. They can’t afford a car because of the cost of their mortgage and nursery fees. She can’t afford to give up work even though she’d like to. It also means they can’t afford to just do what they want - have to budget days out and activities as well as holiday. Their kids aged 4 and 2 do exactly what you could do anywhere: sports club, swimming, art class.

By comparison, we live in a small city near London. It’s pretty ugly and the traffic is bad, but I keep my horses in gorgeous countryside 15 mins from the house (and can afford them!) we have a nursery opposite our house, a garden and our mortgage is less than renting a 1 bed flat in (nice) zone 2. We also can afford holidays where we want. Our nearest shop is 2 mins away at the end of our street.
Do consider that in London, unless you or your parents are stinking rich, you will end up living in an area where you have to walk ages to get anywhere and once you have kids your world will shrink for the first 3-5 years. You won’t want to struggle into the tube with a double buggy at rush hour. Our friends stay within the same 1.5-2 miles of home with their children. They have a military operation getting kids to childcare and nursery before and after work as they have to triangulate their commutes. By comparison, we can afford two cars and can go wherever we want when we want. In fact, we had to lend one car to our friends as they can’t afford one and couldnt travel to see family at Christmas without spending a fortune on hiring a car or on train tickets.

Similarly, other friends of ours who are all just married and earning £90-200k between each couple are living in flats around £400-600k, all with the same issue: no garden and the bloody long walk from transport and the housing wasteland around them (walking 10min+ to shops, bars, doctors, childcare). Fine without kids, but suddenly a pain when coordinating the mornings in rush hour.

Can you afford to buy something tiny in London now (property market is screwed) then sit tight for a few more years as it's value grows, the sell for a profit and get more for your money elsewhere?

If that's an option that's def what I'd do.

I’m also from an insular Lincolnshire town, now living in zone 3 London with my 3 children. We own here and I will be happy to bring my children up here (although truthfully I’d love to live in a nicer part of London), but I’m near the tube and schools are good so hey hoy, just wishful thinking.

Anyway, I lived in Leeds before London and I do think it’s a great city. The north of the city is lovely and there’s plenty going on, close to amazing countryside. We have to stay in London due to jobs and as I said I do like it, but given we’re edging towards the suburbs and I have small children, it could be anywhere to be honest. So what I’m saying is can you ever afford anything in London? I know plenty of people who have kids in flats. You could have babies in London then move? Although it might be easier to make a new group of friends whilst pregnant/with a baby.

If I was you I would stay for a bit as your only 24, when do you want kids? Also 35k is a good salary for your age particularly in procurement so won’t you be earning more once you decide to have kids?

As a born & bred Londoner I fully appreciate the benefits of London. However I live in a nice part of nappy valley with the childminder 10 mins walk away, the school & park 5 mins away. Tube/high street & my work 10 mins away. My mum is 15 mins walk away & MIL a 15 min drive. Our home is smaller than I would like (but does have a garden) & the pros outweigh the cons as it means I have an easy life. Easy life is the priority for me, we could move & get a bigger house in less connected part of London but I don’t see the point of paying for a London lifestyle if your not getting to benefits. DH & I have discussed the future & we would defo consider moving to another city when the kids are older. The home counties traditional move is not for us as not interested in commuting. In fact some or our friends have just moved to Edinburgh & Bristol.

Couple of total non-truths about London I need to dispel!

First the PP who said you have to put your child's name down at birth for schools - this simply isn't true, and certainly is nonsense for all the brilliant state schools which I imagine you'll be applying to. Possibly it applies if you are a billionaire in Knightsbridge, I don't know, but not true for anyone else.

And second the PP above who said you'll have to walk miles to get anywhere! My DC. attend two schools and they are within a mile of our front door, and I then cycle for ten minutes and I'm at my office. Everything is so local - that's the point about London! My whole commute including dropping children at two schools is 30 minutes, front door to office, by bike.

Also non-Londoners always say imagine getting on the tube in rush hour with a buggy - real Londoners never really use the tube with a buggy as everything is local. If you want to eg take the children into central London you wouldn't do it at rush hour! Same as when non parents have a day off work - they wouldn't dream of using the tube at rush hour. Why would you?

I grew up on a farm and now have three DC in London and it's the best thing I did. I like my rural sister who has to drive everywhere, we walk and cycle everywhere, which is much better for all of us. My children have loads of friends within a one mile walkable radius, and it feels like a village where we live, full of friends.

Now my DC are older we hop on the tube to see a museum - last weekend we went to the National Gallery and I showed them art by Turner, Constable, Canaletto, Picasso before having an ice cream and going home. Only paid for the tube and the ice cream!

Meanwhile DH and I have really fun jobs and our house prices are (slowly at the moment!) going up.

Sorry don't want to sound smug but I get very bored of people dissing London when they have no idea.

Also I would actually be careful if you did decide to buy in London now, think carefully about location & how future proof it is as I assume it would be a flat. In Wandsworth the property market has reduced & anyone who bought a flat in the last few years may not have much equity. Who knows if interest rates will increase but I think the days of paying 400k for a property that is worth 600k in a few years are over unless it’s in very specific hot spots. Everywhere has gentrified now, at least on paper!

sonotcivil

I know but I really need to decide within a few months whether I want to move or not.

If I were you I would spend the next 6-8 years where you are getting as far on with your career as you possibly can. Work every hour and take every promotion. Get GOOD. This will really help when you go back. All the people I know with really good flexible work arrangements etc. have them because they were quite senior and known to be proven, valuable assets before they had children.

Then, when you are 30-32 and actively TTC consider where you want to be.

If you do move I would prioritise cities where there's a good deal of other Civil Service jobs. So from what I know, Leeds and Sheffield, increasingly Manchester. That way you can move Departments if necessary to help with career progression.

Though having said that, you might find things look significantly better financially once you hit Grade 7, which you inevitably will if you're earning that at 24.

To the PP who suggested Cambridge, it's not cheaper than SE London if you want to live anywhere vaguely central, and the train is 5k a year plus tube.