Poor Stephen Lawrence

[Merryoldgoat]

I’m watching the Stephen Lawrence documentary. I’m only about half an hour in and I can’t bear it.

I just think about my boys upstairs and can’t imagine how his parents and his friend must feel.

It’s just so awful.

this extends to is it north or south yorks police and the whole rotheram thing

the moral code for these people is look after your own!

So back in 93, the Police kept Dobsons and Norris clothes, which was kept safely secure for over 20 years? Atleast the Police did one responsible thing, but I’m curious as to why these items of clothes were kept? I wasn’t sure if the Police were allowed to keep evidence items, as Dobson and Norris hadn’t been convicted of the murder. Is it normal to keep evidence of “innocent “ men?
One thing I noticed about Eltham is that even today it’s predominately a white area. Go a few miles down the road and your in Catford, a very multicultural area. Go a few miles the other way and your in Woolwich, also a very multicultural area. The BNP had a HQ near Eltham in the 90s too. I’m not suggesting that Eltham is a racist area, but I can see how especially 25 years ago black people may have felt uncomfortable there ( as Stephen Lawrence’s cousin stated on the documentary),

I’m sure Eltham is a very racist area! From what I know of it. Having grown up near there
I’m sure all evidence has to be kept for a minimum amount of time.

The cousin said Thames mead was worse android total no go area.

Yes if a case is not resolved they can keep items. I guess they couldn't see blood at the time and didn't feel they were incriminating items. They couldn't 🔮 the strides in dna and forensic testing..

Whilst Stephen was undoubtedly killed because he was black I don't feel the police case cock up was entirely due to racism.
I think it's been a slightly red herring and I think we need urgent massive over haul of the police

Sun

It's not a red herring. It multiplied the ease with which the corruption could be got a way with. They thought they didn't need to put on a good show of investigating properly.. They thought they could steam roller a black family and Stephen's friends. And most importantly, they didn't show enough care for a dying black boy

I grew up in Eltham and yes people were racist but I think you would have found similar attitudes in many parts of Britain at that time.

One of the reasons for Eltham being such a ‘white’ area was a council policy of housing extended families together - so cousins, aunties etc lived close which fostered a sense of community - but evidently fostered other attitudes as well.

At the same time areas like Lewisham had huge first and second generation West Indian and African families -some of whom had come over on the Windrush. Woolwich also housed many refugees and asylum seekers.

There was racial tension. And the BNP HQ didn’t help - I remember them putting leaflets through our door as a child and skinheads holding a huge NF March up the high street.

It was against this backdrop that these thugs murdered that boy. I watched the first documentary and was horrified by the way the family was treated in the aftermath, how little support there was for them.

sunwherethefareyou

Institutional racism doesn’t have to be officers actively and consciously thinking about and doing things that are racist. It can be that they do things because it’s always been done that way forgetting that the reason it’s always been done that way is because of racism.

For example a black lad gets stopped and searched,, the reason for the search is that the police officer thinks he was acting suspicious. The police officer doesn’t hate black people and doesn’t think that all black men are criminals and doesn’t think of himself as racist but he stopped and searched a black lad because he’s suspicious. When you question why he’s suspicious, it’s because he’s wearing a hoodie and loitering on a street but then you remind the police officer that there are often white lads wearing hoodies and loitering on the street too yet they don’t get stopped. The police officer doesn’t have an answer aside that he also had a gut feeling. But really that gut feeling really means that somewhere in the back of his mind he has labelled someone to be more suspicious than an almost identical counterpart because of the colour of his skin, even though it’s not an active thought it’s still there somewhere.

Here’s an example of subconscious racism from only last week.

My friend was looking for workmen to come and give her quotes, and she became suspicious that when she gave her name, they suddenly had too much work on and couldn’t come.

So I called the same workmen (6 of them) and asked for the same thing, on the same day. They all gave me an appointment.

THAT is societal racism which filters down from shit like this.

How do you counter that?

I would think that expanding recruitment from ethnic minorities into the police would help but that’s a huge challenge for the Met given its history with BME people in London.

I honestly don’t know, but I do think where institutional racism has damaged a case you hold up your hands and try to make a conscious effort to change and do differently next time. You don’t go on tv and make sly digs at a grieving family.

They thought they could steam roller a black family and Stephen's friends
The father of David Norris, one of the men who murdered Stephen Lawrence, used a network of corrupt Metropolitan police officers to protect himself and his close relations from justice, according to claims made by his family.

Victoria and Naomi Smith, who are related to the Norris family by marriage, have broken 25 years of silence to allege that Clifford Norris used corrupt officers to thwart a murder inquiry four years before Lawrence was stabbed to death in Eltham, south-east London, in 1993.

The extent of Clifford Norris’s reach into the Met has long been a matter of controversy. The Smiths now allege that Norris used his influence with police after his brother, Alex, became a suspect in the 1989 shooting of Tony Smith following a pub fight. No one was ever charged, and the Smiths allege sensitive information given to police ended up being passed to Norris.

Gary Dobson, left, and David Norris were convicted of Stephen’s murder in 2012.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest Gary Dobson, left, and David Norris were convicted of Stephen’s murder in 2012. Photograph: CPS/PA
The family of Tony Smith are related to Clifford Norris through his marriage to Theresa, a cousin of Tony and Victoria Smith and the mother of David Norris.

Police intelligence shows detectives believed Clifford and Alex Norris had worked together in their criminal enterprises. Clifford Norris, a convicted former drug importer, denies ever having corruptly influenced police officers.

he links to the police were well known within the family, according to Tony and Victoria Smith’s mother, Naomi: “It was known as the cocaine mile: from Bermondsey to Greenwich, Clifford Norris had the old bill in his pocket in every nick.”

The Smiths also say Clifford Norris used his influence with the police after Stephen Lawrence’s murder; Norris’s son David was among the men jailed in 2012 for the racist killing after 19 years of evading justice.

The Guardian view on Stephen Lawrence: we owe his parents better
Read more
Victoria Smith said: “If the police had done their job after my brother was killed, then [Doreen] Lawrence would not have gone through what she went through. They left Clifford Norris at large and untouched to use his influence with the police.”

The Smith family say they told the Met about their corruption claims, and were not taken seriously.

The new allegations point to the Norrises having a much greater reach into the Met than previously believed, or has ever been admitted by police chiefs.

They were also steam rolled - and they were white they also lost someone and no one was prosecuted. They are white.

I dont doubt for a second that race came into this and undoubetly he was killed in a racist attack but the subsequent police failings are for a myriad of reasons not least police corruption.
*

^^ No one was ever charged, and the Smiths allege sensitive information given to police ended up being passed to Norris

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/19/corrupt-met-officers-protected-family-of-stephen-lawrence-murderer

Sun

That's terrible. I know that white people have been hurt by this gang too.

I simply disagree with your statement that race is a red herring. A red herring is something that distracts from or misleads about a more important issue. Both are important

In that I think we are essentially agreeing

I wonder if the police in the Smith case alleged/insinuated publicly he was a criminal, or that he somehow brought it on himself.

Yes, the failure to prosecute is the same, but you cannot honestly compare the treatment and public denigration of the Lawrences to the Smith case. Because it’s not the same. If the Lawrences had been a white, middle class family instead of a black middle class family, they would have had justice. It’s that simple.

Smeddum

Yes. That too

I am white and middle class. I rarely interact with the police but I cannot forget things like this when I do. I hate that some people cannot expect fair treatment from the police. And yes it’s not all police but it’s the institution.
I have personal reasons for this distrust, but nothing on the scale of the Lawrence family so I’m not comparing it here.
sunlight is the best disinfectant but the more we learn about the police the more we know we aren’t at the bottom of the prejudice and corruption (Hillsborough, miners strikes, Rotherham, Saville)

Well the smith sisters said they had no help either.

They were white.

No one investigated and they feel thats because Clifford Norris had far reach into the Met and every nick in the area in his pocket.

The same man used the same influence for the Lawrences. One was white, one was black!

Information was passed to the police re smiths killers and nothing was done.

Wider actions may not have been acted on due to SL race but the CORE here is the same.
Clifford Norris had relationships with the police and therefore they didn't act, they didn't investigate either case and they fudged everything.

Do you think had SL been white - and stabbed and killed in the same way - ( obviously removing the specific race link here) the police would have gone after these boys with the full force of the law?

I dont for a second because these men had done this before on a white guy and it wasn't acted on.

All the focus was on the race aspect - nothing much on the clifford Norris aspect, why after 25 years is his links coming out now?

Oh..maybe he did have more influence than we thought???????????/

It was his influence that cocked everything up and this should have been targeted and jumped on at the time, how no one linked up these two killings before...

Thanks for that extra insight sun

phlewf

^^ I am white and middle class I have had cause to have police here and I have been stone walled and brushed off - and if I was extremely rich and could afford legal team I could have started something myself in a different area of marginalized people who no one cares about.

I found on one level in day to day stuff police helpful..however on this bigger important matter - sheer lack of drive, initiative and massive incompetence.

sun I agree, I just meant that I have no natural fear of police iyswim. My parents didn’t have to tell me not to mouth off if stopped by police, I don’t consciously think about whether I have my hood up depending on where I am. And to put it bluntly if my child was assualted I am confident they wouldn’t be thought to have brought it on themselves.

The BNP headquarters was in Welling not Eltham.

There was another murder outside Kidbrooke School at the time a young 15 year old boy called Carl Rickard (C J) who was killed by a machete in the head. This didn’t receive much publicity although the boys responsible were at least found guilty. Two of the accused were thought to be triads. They were out after a couple of years though. A mini cab driver heard them talking about what they planned to do and still took them to the school.

Lee Rigby was also murdered and there is no commemoration plaque and no plans by Greenwich council for one.

Both mothers suffered racist murder of their sons.

Shared by the Facebook page UK Cop Humour.

From GuerrillaWire

guerillawire.org/justice/stephen-lawrence-macpherson-and-the-bbc-are-police-being-unfairly-stereotyped-and-vilified/