To wonder why male things are always better?

[Bumpitybumper]

Has anyone else noticed things typically associated with men are considered to be better? Examples I've noticed:

Trivial
Names - baby girls being given male names is considered cool and trendy (James, Noah etc) but this seems to seldom work in reverse.
Colours - pink is often rejected even for girls because it's too 'girly' but blue is acceptable for both sexes.

Non-trivial
Professions - women are encouraged to enter typically make dominated STEM industries but little is done to address the appalling pay, conditions and underappreciation of female denominated sectors such as teaching, caring etc
Childcare - the onus seems to be on getting more women into FT work rather than spending time at home to raise their children. Tax system and free childcare entitlements designed to encourage this rather than to incentivise men AND women to be SAHPs.

There are loads of other things I've noticed too.

AIBU to be deeply cynical about why the traditionally male approach is always seen to be superior and to worry that this isn't the best way to achieve equality?

Can we have an mn thread of cheaper men's toiletry products etc that work as well as women's so we can start making a point to the powers that be please?

I will add to the list haircuts, barbershop trim £10, women's hairdresser whatever you are prepared to pay...

Men's razors always used to be cheaper, although I think some places have at least changed that now. I certainly think they're better.

There's a Nivea men's cream which works as an excellent primer if anyone is so inclined. Costs something like £3.99 versus a product aimed at women which is closer to £8.99.

I think its sensible to pick and choose ones battles. I won't martyr myself to doing a deep clean every weekend. And going back to work after mat leave is just sensible planning - where are all these people denigrating women for having the audacity to work after mat leave?

Why do you think that might be though, discontinued?

Because it’s in men’s best interests for women to be as pretty as possible.

It's because a girl acting like a boy is a glorious promotion for her whereas a boy acting like a girl is a humiliating demotion for him.

It's gonna take another 1000 years for men to grow out of assuming that male stuff is just better.

Both of these are very true. But, can't we start now by raising our boys and girls not to assume things are 'male' or 'female' in the first place? Adult men pretty routinely wear pink shirts, adult females wear jeans and t-shirts – but you wouldn't think that to look at children's clothes. Being female really isn't all about pink and princesses – but that's the way it's sold to small children.

I coach rugby. The number of times I have heard “he passes like a girl” with a sneer.

My fab co-coach responds with a “mate, I can guarantee she’s played at a higher level than you so passing like a girl is to be aspired to”

Interestingly (and obviously anecdotally) I find the casual sexism worse in rugby union compared to rugby league.

Anyone heard of the so-called 'pink pound'?

It never really occurred to me but when I thought about it rang seriously true.

Yes, sexism sadly.

I also hate the fact that it has to be pointed out when something that's presumed to be male is found to be female such as the awful term 'ladyboss.' Horrible.

I wonder who gives the go ahead for men's clothes to made properly and women's clothes to be made cheaply? Why is it presumed that women want polyester and men want cotton? I'm assuming it's money as it always comes down to that in the end. Women won't complain.

There have been quite a few threads on this topic over the years with a lot of examples but no real solution unfortunately.

Slippers! I buy men's, much better quality, more comfortable and last longer.

I agree with all you've written OP.
Joanna, a friend and I said the same thing the other week - we came to the conclusion that ( maybe) some men cant handle the pressure of being expected to be ' macho' or the main 'bread winners' or whatever.
I hope i;m not offending anyone and it was only musings over a cup of tea after watching a programme on ITV about transgenders and i am aware theres a lot more to it all of course. Woman, generally, have it a lot harder than men so it does baffle my friends and I. They will never experience periods and the misery they can cause either.

There is a man close to where i live who is a stay at home dad and a very good one, but there are veiled whispers about ' why doesnt he have a job' etc and viewed ( by some) with suspicion when its a great arrangement for them both and she is happy enough not having to do all the school runs and cleaning and cooking. It wouldnt have worked for us at all.

Maybe men are just good at tuning out the things they dont want to hear and are less worried about things?
On a lighter note, men always wear much more practical clothes and shoes - my feet are not designed for a lot of fashion ladies shoes. I do envy them their comfortable shoes.

DiscontinuedModelHusband yes, women do have more choice of clothes and shops but who wants that choice to be from a vast array of polyester things? Give me a few cotton / denim items any day of the week.

*I think the push to get both parents into full-time work is a strange priority. Children are the future, right? So why is our average model one where children are in full time childcare/wraparound care, often from 7.30am to 6pm, and parents are struggling to cram homework, baths, reading, preparation of nutritious meals, interacting with their child etc into an hour or two before bed? Followed by cleaning, washing clothes, keeping house in a decent state for them.

In my perfect world, I would say that care of children is crucial. One parent would therefore be incentivised to work part-time. They would get tax breaks and childcare would be heavily subsidised. The SAHP would have pension/NI contributions paid automatically until their child was secondary age. I would go as far as to say that child benefit should be designed with the idea that one parent would be unable to work full-time any more in mind. Oh, and maternity pay would be at least minimum wage.

I know people will say I'm mad - but I think we're failing children with our current model.*

I more or less agree with this except for one aspect. I think children have 2 parents and parenting and working should be an equal venture. I believe the working week should be split to accommodate this so child can be equally raised by both of their parents. Industrialisation and then subsequent workers rights movements have given rise to what is now considered a traditional working week. There is nothing inherently special about a Monday to Friday week with a weekend and many people don’t even have that as a working week but facilitating caring roles in families could give rise to new work patterns that allow children to be raised by both of their parents.

I was named after my father and my name works for a male or female so I suppose it is unisex? It can be awkward when people assume you are the opposite sex but usually the worst thing that happens is I spoil people's table setting when they want it to be male/female/male/female and they discover they have male/female/female/female. It is usually better if this is dealt with as not important but chaos can be caused if they try to get their pattern back.

I don't think unisex always means male, I go to a unisex hairdresser and the salon is much more like a typical hairdresser's than a barbers.

Some of the things are women's choices e.g. the practical shoes, companies wouldn't bother making shoes for women that aren't practical if women didn't buy them so our choice really, I suppose men might turn it round and say we have a choice and they don't.

Typically female jobs are often paid less but then men doing those jobs can be discriminated against, e.g. men wanting to work in nurseries being suspected of having an unhealthy interest in young children when no one thinks that about a woman. Would be nice if these jobs were better paid and men were encouraged to do them.

I hardly ever wear a dress/skirt so generally live in trousers and mine all have pockets. I didn't realise women's trousers didn't generally have pockets. I think that is weird.

I've recently liberated myself from a handbag, I've always used one and one day my daughter said "Why?" and actually most of the time a purse and keys are all I need and they fit in my pocket. I've found that surprisingly liberating.

My husband was he one who gave up work and stayed at home. My sons haven't followed his example so far but I think that is mainly as my DsIL wanted to be the SAHP.

I think the push to get both parents into full-time work is a strange priority. Children are the future, right? So why is our average model one where children are in full time childcare/wraparound care, often from 7.30am to 6pm, and parents are struggling to cram homework, baths, reading, preparation of nutritious meals, interacting with their child etc into an hour or two before bed?

It's crazy that this even needs to be pointed out. Why is it so 'aspirational and empowered' to pay other people to look after your children so that you can go and do a different job somewhere else all day? Looking after children is a job (and a bloody important one), or you wouldn't need other people (with the proper qualifications, etc) to it for you. It certainly felt like a job when I was doing it.

I've gone from a SAHM constantly feeling guilty that I wasn't realising my potential, being a good role-model for my DD and contributing to the household income, to a working mother who's constantly feeling guilty that my DD is at nursery for 40 hours/week and that I don't have time to play with her in the evenings when I have to cram in everything else that needs doing. If I'm modelling anything to DD, it's 'how to be frazzled'. I'm also working practically for free, as my salary only contributes a couple of hundred after childcare...

There's also the part of this where men who do do 'women's things' are always treated like they're exceptionally good at them. From men being praised for just being present with a child ('such an amazing dad'), to the fact that the vast majority of cooks and hairdressers are women, but the superstars are men, to the golden escalator for men in professions like primary school teaching or nursing. The underlying attitude seems to be that most men don't choose to do these things, but when they do they, of course, are better at them than women.

I more or less agree with this except for one aspect. I think children have 2 parents and parenting and working should be an equal venture. I believe the working week should be split to accommodate this so child can be equally raised by both of their parents.

I totally agree with this. I'm friends with a couple who have been able to negotiate working 2.5 days each so that they can equally split childcare. I'd love to see that promoted as a model.

They're both in teaching, so a profession that's a bit more open to flexible working than others. I'm aware that an arrangement like that is pie in the sky for most people.

Women do get treated as amazing when they do traditionally male things, well I have been. My car broke down one day and I was tinkering under the bonnet and got the car going. A couple came over to tell me how amazing I was and how proud they were to see young women doing things like that. I can't imagine a man getting that response.

The names thing driveshaft me mad.
Even on the baby names board here, traditional girls names are denounced as ‘frilly’ or ‘twee’ (read: too obviously feminine.)
Unisex bandana tend to be unisex for a while, until the female version is established, and then becomes devalued for males, because of the association with the feminine. Eg Leslie, Hilary.
I personally think that feminists should choose names that celebrate femininity, and encourage their daughters do whatever the hell they like, rather than seeing a high powered male dominated job as the ultimate goal.
Feminism is about equality. We should be saying : feminine is as good as masculine, rather than being ashamed and cover up our female selves, whatever form that takes

Bandana? Names! 😂

I more or less agree with this except for one aspect. I think children have 2 parents and parenting and working should be an equal venture. I believe the working week should be split to accommodate this so child can be equally raised by both of their parents.

I agree, but again we have to stop seeing men as doing something exceptional just by bothering with their children first. I'm pregnant and we're going to do shared parental leave (not even evenly split - I'm having six months and he's having three) and I've been quite pissed off by the way that people think DH is doing something amazing/completely above and beyond by doing this (and also that his employer is - 'don't they mind?' 'maybe it's a bit, but it's a legal entitlement...'), whereas obviously me having leave and me and my employer dealing with the fallout is just par for the course, and I'm being a bit shit at being a mother to my as-yet-unborn-child by not taking longer.

I agree with all of this but I notice that it is a bit different in Germany where I live. On the SAH/WOH thing, it's a lot more traditional here in south Germany - full time WOHM are fairly rare and the state systems of support such as Elterngeld (basically maternity pay, payable till your kid is aged 3 and available to either the mother or father) and the short school hours, late start (6!) and so on are geared towards having someone in the house. You might hope then that SAH would be a bit more respected than in the UK, but sadly no - outside of the old boys of the CDU/CSU it seems like we just have this false dichotomy where you can have a career as a woman and be hard and cerebral and ambitious, or you can have kids and be soft and woolly and a bit thick. It is a bit rubbish, and of course it means that Germany manages to combine low female participation in the workforce with I think the second lowest birth rate in the EU.

But we do have excellent quality shoes for girls, so there is that - you might have to choose between having a family and anyone ever taking you seriously, but at least your feet will be both warm in winter and also sparkly pink.

If most men are like my DH, they will keep on wearing clothes till there are holes under the arms, the trousers are fraying and the elastic's gone in their pants! He doesn't care one jot what people think.

Life is much simpler for blokes for some things.
No makeup unless they want to
No need to shave if they don't want to
No expectations to look 'pretty'
No expectations to dye hair
No expectations to stay looking young
No expectation to care about any or all of the above!

I'm sitting here in my office, lunch break from my STEM job, wearing walking shoes, tough cotton trousers with pockets, plain cotton tee (though I'll concede M&S), no makeup and undyed hair even though I'm 50+. I don't care either but used to get a lot of flak from my late mum nagging about the makeup (or lack of). Societal expectations are a b*gger.

I even had pockets in my wedding dress.

Some of the things are women's choices e.g. the practical shoes, companies wouldn't bother making shoes for women that aren't practical if women didn't buy them so our choice really.

Yes, but why does a woman choose to wear heels? Because it's expected, in some situations. When I used to go clubbing, I always wore heels, as you wouldn't get past the door without them. And smart work wear for women often means heels. (Although not as much as it used to.)

...men wanting to work in nurseries being suspected of having an unhealthy interest in young children when no one thinks that about a woman.

Of course this is wrong but men are statistically more likely to be paedophiles and sex offenders than women. And for women, child care is a traditional choice of profession, whereas people may wonder about a man's motivation to choose a low paid, low status job, when he presumably has other avenues open.

You are being goady implying working mothers don't raise their own children or that working is a 'male' thing
Women have always worked