Tutors for SATS?

[Flatpackjackie]

I don't understand this. I thought SATS results were really just to check that the school's meeting expected standards? Why would you book private tuition for your child, to prepare for them?

Two families I know are doing this, but the two children involved are achieving way above average in Maths and English.

Am I missing a trick here? Thanks

But just because you say 'for SATS' doesn't mean that the knowledge and ability and confidence won't benefit the child after the tests.

We started tutoring in year 3. Not for sats but were told by school she wasn't where she should be - teacher has 30 noisy kids to teach she was getting "lost" in the class and my attempts left us both in tears...

Having seen what progress 8 means and knowing how schools focus intervention and funding I've realised the SATs need to really reflect your child's ability or they will be left to coast or put under huge pressure. Our secondary doesn't set on the SATs but all the targets are based on them because that's what the national measure is. It's bizarre that from an English and maths test aged 10 the secondary will predict my son will get a 5 in Spanish for example (a subject he hasn't even been taught yet) The government is bonkers

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy re tutoring and tests.Parents will always tutor kids for any tests if they feel the need yet the focus is always on the 11+. Frankly I see no difference in tutoring for 11+ and tutoring for Sats in order to cream off top set places at secondary. The same thing happens for GCSE and A levels for the best uni places. Those that can afford it will do it if they feel the need.

Would it be possible for no-one to be told individual SATS results? If only government knew them, they could still use them to measure both primary school output and value-added by secondaries, but they couldn't be used to constrain trajectory of individual children's academic path.

Grass at dd school if you got a low English score you weren't even allowed to do Spanish - French only as you deemed not able to do two languages. That's that - you can't catch up at a later date.

Frankly felt abit lied to by the "SATs don't matter" tinkly laugh we got from school. Simply not true. In our area anyway.

I agree Maisypops. Don't a lot of the schools do CATS now for determining sets?? One of my children was moved up on that basis. Which was a bit irksome at the time, as they had kept her in a set down due to ill health and absence, and wouldn't acknowledge she was coasting. All changed when they scored high 130s on all the CATS, and we were told they indicated she needed challenging!
As for tutoring, it's certainly a thriving industry round here, from young primary to 6th form. I know some children can benefit, such as Kerala's positive experience, but it can also be a crutch for over dependency, especially as time goes on. I know many people who have had their kids tutored through primary & 11plus...found they were struggling at secondary, so had to keep up the tutoring. Then when some haven't had great grades at GCSE, have had to leave their schools. A lot of these kids have ended up being tutored throughout A level too, which is hardly instrumental towards encouraging independent learning. That is what I place importance on, encouraging the ability and enthusiasm for learning, as opposed to helping them simply pass a test. My eldest will be off to uni soon, and has thankfully strived to be where she is today. She's not always found it easy, and has sometimes faltered in her enthusiasm for a subject when the going got tough. But she has learned to overcome those hurdles herself, and I do believe that's important preparation for her time ahead.

We were having a similar conversation recently in the playground. I said I wanted DS to do his best in SATs as it's important to always try your best but if the scores were low then I wasn't going to be that upset as that obviously reflects where he is ability wise and I want his secondary school to have an accurate idea so they can put him in the correct set/provide the correct help required. Everyone looked at me like I had 2 heads!

As TooManyTeaLights says, most people wouldn't think twice about tutoring for the 11+ if they wanted their child to get a grammar school place, so of course people are going to tutor for SATs to give their child the best chance of getting into the top set at their local comprehensive, which is the equivalent aspiration in non-grammar areas.

We didn't hire a tutor for my son last year, since we were confident that we could do the work with him ourselves, but we must have done hours and hours of practice workbooks and tests in the months leading up to the exam. It worked - he got over the magic 110 scaled score in all areas, and went straight into the top set. We would have done the same amount of work with him I'm sure if we'd been in a grammar area but focusing on the 11+ instead of the SATs.

All this tutoring means that some primaries will look better than they are.
Advantaged area = better results than less advantaged area due to parents paying for tutoring.
Unfortunately, Ofsted seem blind to this. [Would love to be corrected here but does seem to be the case at both primary and secondary level].

Only partially due to tutoring of course as more engaged and educated parents can make some schools lives easier re results.

The child would have to be very exceptional to move into top set with a target of a 5.
Yes it’s possible but very rare.
But that doesn't make any sense from a school data perspective at all.
You can't get value added for progress 8 with a child targeted an 8/9. The best you can get is 0.
A child targeted a 5 who is very good and can get an 8/9 is actually a better bet for top set from a school data persepctive.

Mumto2two
It's money making at the end of the day.
Some students do benefit from it, but in my experience they are the ones least likely to get any tutoring.
I think some parents are far too fixated on sets.
When you teach mixed you still get so many complaints that thier DC was in a 'lower set' because they are in a class with a weaker child from primary. They call up demanding to be moved sets... when you don't set.
When you set then you get parents whining their child isn't in top set because their DC got an 8 on their assessment but someone in set 1 got a 6. They can't understand why you can't shift sets every fortnight. Plus you know once their DC was in set 1 any 6 they got would be a 'one off'.
There's this idea that it's impossible to move sets so you're going to be stuck for all eternity never to achieve if you are in a lower set.
I had a lower-mid set . Over half a dozen students got A-A*/7-9. Thankfully the parents in that class realised the number on their child's timetable isn't a cap on their outcomes. We outperformed the set above on higher grades.

There's pros and cons to setting. I like teaching in sets but can't be doing with thr endless whining about why 80 parents think their child should be in top set. Ultimately the but my child in set 1 is more often than not about ego and bragging rights.

Pupils for months are taught how to pass the tests and then secondary school have these hugely inflated results for pupils that put the teachers under extortionate pressure because despite the best efforts Joe Blogs that had 1-1 coaching to get a high score in the SATs is just not a higher kid at GCSE. It's the system at fault and it is so unfair on everyone!!

This ^^

And often after SATS are taken the schools let the kids relax and have more art, games, 'fun' lessons, then they have 6 weeks off and enter secondary haven slid back from their scores.

Rather harsh on parents Maisy. You are au fait with how it all works but to the lay person it's not obvious. And in our day if you were in a lower set your grades were capped. So you can see why engaged parents might respond if their child is put in a low set for something as crucial as maths.

My eldest is 12, middle is 8 and my youngest is 7 so worked on both primary curriculums and way they measure them.

When eldest started school we were bit clueless how state primary schools worked really.

When looking round we looked at ofsted and sats results as a measure for choosing that school.

Reception year seemed to go ok i guess er used to get numbered scores end of year amd my child as suspected was distinctly average.

The leap between receptiob efys and ks1 curriculum in year 1 we found a real challenge.

My daughter was constantly crying over homework she couldent do.
She was on low reading band
She was 1st year they introduced the phonics test.
Everyone in her class school knew ehat reading band she was on.
Seemed like the only kids who got intervention gad to be sen or doing very badly.

We got really concerned and raised this at both parents evenings.
It wasent until end if year 1 report last day term asvold reports came with national curriculum levels which were confusing at first but once got head around them.
By some miracle she passed phonics test but she could hardly read.

Start year 2 we tried raise issue with school that clearly she was behind and what were they going to do about it.
They were very dismissive.
So we moved schools and the new school did numerous intervention which mean she passed her year 2 ks2 sats.
She continued to get some interventions until year 4 and each end of year report we could see the progress.

Then the government messed about with the curriculum made it harder so things they woukd have covered in year 4 they now do year early in year 3.
So the new primary curriculum last 3 years has got harder.
Also the nc grades were scrapped all i get now end if year is

Working towards age related expectations
Working with within

Working above age related expectations

I really hate this as i dont know how much progress shes making.

If she gets working within 2 years in a row has she got any better.
Is she acheiving her potential

They used to set tables by ability in our primary.
Start year 6 from very 1st week they did practice sats and ny daughter scored badly.

It really upset her a lot of her cohort were naturally bright my daughter has to work hard at it.

Her job share year 6 teachers were rubbish had no faith in them.
At the time the government were talking about those who failed resitting the sats in year 7 which they scrapped that idea but was very real possibility at that time.

We started looking round senior schools year 5 and again in year 6 trying to narrow it down to 3 as thats all preferences we get here.

We have no grammar schools
We couldent afford private
We dident meet the criteria for the 2 faith schools within the city
Our lea is bottom in England bottom 10 and lowly funded.
Our local comps get 50% or under gcse pass rate.

We looked around many schools and asked many questions.

Some schools set from year 7 from sats.
Some a mix of cats and sats
Some dont set at all.

Progress 8 has been out 2 years now used to be called value added and its true gcse predicted grades are partially set from year 6 sats results.

We got a tutor who massively helped dd1 be happy confident and pass.

The pass Mark is 100

Shed always been stronger at English than maths

107 for English
104 for maths

110 is greater depth
120 is max

It gave me greater idea of where she is than parents eve or working towards or within.

We still feels shes an average child
If she went to a mediocre senior school or put in low set she would acheive low results.
If she goes to pushier school and has kids with higher aspirations then she would do better.

Sats are test if what you know
Cats i think vis like 11 plus your potential to learn.

We were forunate get 1st preference school random allocation so very lucky.
We dident realise until she started year 7 that they dont set for anything.
Year 7 is an assessment year.
So her sats havent affected her sats but in subjects like maths its meant shes not struggled as we did year of tutoring maths year 6 then stopped and worried what if she can't cope with year 7 maths.
So far she coping fine she middle if the class in terms of ability where as she was lower end at primary.
We get termly report cards aligned with new gcses grading 1 -9.
We dont get a predicted end of year 11 gcse grade yet but we get a predicted grade end of year 7.

Shes predicted 3 in everything which is a low c not bad at aged 12 end of year 7.
Shes acheived some of these targets and gots 4 in others.

She has end if year 7 exams to help them set for year 8.
As far as i know gcse options are year 9 but so many school now choose year 8 which i feel is too early as choose wrong can limit career and a level options.

Re languages ours start off doing 2 modern languages
If they lower sets they drop to 1
If they do well they can continue with current 2 or drop one and pick up 2nd new language other schools start with 1 and if you top sets you get to do a 2nd.

Our school has option triple award science not all do.
Our local high school sets from year 7

So languages off english sats
Science sets off maths

They all seem to be doing wildly different things at start of year 6 you dont which school your child will get.

I wentvto awful comp where once you were stuck in a set it was hard to move up.
The lower sets were very disruptive and affected my gcse results as such awfuk behaviour and poorer teaching.
Lots people talk on mumsnet about grammar schools creaming off.
Well just 1 large secondary a child can have differemt experience and results based on their sets which is based on sats.

As i said before we cant afford private fees
So we happy spend our money on tutors workbooklets online subscriptions and extra curricular activities to boist our childs potential and results at school.
Lots parents here are blase ibbpublic oh sats dont matter by end if year 6 we realised kots if parents had been secretly tutoring for years and keeping it a secret.

It does give parents false impression of schools results as they only too happy tp take the credit.

Also over years realised schools change and decline sometimes fast so tutoring can hell in that situation.

My youngest sits his year 2 sats this year hes has sen i dont care if he passses or not just that hes supported.

My middle one has just moved schools as was unhappy at ks2 provision at eldest primary. Shes very bright bored and not challenged enough it's cheaper for me to move her than pay a tutor.

The wishy washy parents evening and working within expectations or above tells me nothing she also had a few disruptive class members.

We have to do whats right for our kids.
We can moan about education system all day but it is what it is and we gave to work with system we have.

We were spun the line that SATs not important. Bollocks. All the setting at secondary done on these results and hard to get out of lower sets. If we had known this we would have tutored in maths

Ditto. And it was Mumsnet that was the most vocal about them not being important. Bollocks. They were used as setting my dds secondary tutor groups. They also did their own CATS after a term in year 7 but no movement between sets after those. Dd did science sats, did averagely well and is now predicted a 5 at gcse so in a middle group despite loving science. The middle groups don't do triple gcse.

But that doesn't make any sense from a school data perspective at all.
You can't get value added for progress 8 with a child targeted an 8/9. The best you can get is 0.
A child targeted a 5 who is very good and can get an 8/9 is actually a better bet for top set from a school data persepctive

Totally agree. It does seem a rare find though. Maybe one or two students a year. It is also hard to stand out when there are so many students with high grades.

Not all secondaries use SATs for setting - although they have to use them in their target setting.

I have known students get As in set 3!
And if you DC was going to "underperform" pushing them to just achieve might be cutting off help (funding for help) in Secondary school.

Great if tutoring leads to real progress that is going from not understanding to real understanding.
Not great if it just teaches to the test and artificially inflates grades.

Ditto. And it was Mumsnet that was the most vocal about them not being important. Bollocks. They were used as setting my dds secondary tutor groups. They also did their own CATS after a term in year 7 but no movement between sets after those. Dd did science sats, did averagely well and is now predicted a 5 at gcse so in a middle group despite loving science. The middle groups don't do triple gcse.

This was exactly the reason I desperately didn't want my DC to go to a certain secondary, and fought for them to go to the one they did. Although even at that secondary (which virtually streams) I know that there is movement between the sets.

What about the people who are pulling their dc out of the y6 SATs - there's a campaign and a withdrawal letter on 'letthekidsbekids' - or those that attend private school and don't do them? What happens then?
My dc is going to a grammar school where there is no ability setting, so we are definitely not stressing / working for y6 SATs.

With my 2 children, eldest got greater depth [just] on maths.
School loving him for maths as thriving at secondary and making plus progress from his starting point. Not a high achieving school and big mix of ability in his class but given challenges etc if finishes work early.
He loves maths but 'experiments' and year 6 teachers found him frustrating as always scored lower than ability in SATs practice etc. I knew doing lots of test papers would kill love so left him to own devices and no extra work at home. I suspect experimenting a good sign in maths though can see exams not really time to do it!
DS 2 struggles more generally. I think extra tuition would kill any joy he has of school [which he thinks is a waste of his time as it is].
Year 4. He will hate year 6 SATs. Not pushing any school stuff at the moment but worry a little about how he will do. Hopefully will all come out in the wash!

My dd has a maths tutor because she is one of 10 girls in a class of 24 boys and the teacher (who is also deputy head and spends more time out of class than in it) seems to be focusing on the less able boys and ignoring the girls. And although dd is ok at maths she has no confidence in her own abilities and will tantrum and cry if I try and teach her so I pay someone else and that’s better for both of use.

They are def used for secondary, even though secondaries have their own tests on entry. They’re used in conjunction.

I got tutors for my dc during SATs run up because their school report in July, end of year 5, said they were doing great and at the right level for their age group. The next school report in November of year 6 said they were 18-24 months behind. I got 2 tutors, English and Maths, in place for January but they will continue through to July covering SATs in the May.

Several parents asked me for the contact details for the tutors and they have started using them too.

School still believes my dc is behind and they still encourage attendance at the SATs booster classes 5 days a week from 7.45am The tutors have my dc completing the SATs papers easily and correctly with no problems. We will see when we get the results whether there was an issue.

Haha just have a good laugh at them, panicking and competing about irrelevancies.
DS2 is doing SATs this year. I truly cannot even remember DS1's results....