Aibu to think if you want the legal protection of marriage then get married

[Sofabitch]

I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking about how widows allowance isn't paid to couples that weren't married, even if children are involved.

Aibu to think marriage is essentially the legal joining of people and if you want to be recognised legally and finacially then you should get married.

I guess the supreme court will ultimately decide if I am being unreasonable. But i can't help but think people dont realise the legal security marriage offers and they should.

But the UK wedding venues we spoke to couldn’t get their heads round the concept that we wanted to have a ceremony without the legal part

They really could, its very common to do so. Perhaps you were just as bad at explaining what you wanted there as you have been here?

Which one of us was actually present during these conversations, me or you?

You are being quite rude, you know.

Relabelling the way in which a relationship is "legalised" is going to be a pretty long way down the to do list of any government for a long time I would think.

Forever. Because it doesn't right any perceived wrong.

There is no-one, almost literally no-one, campaigning to remove the Church of England's current power to marry under Part II of the Marriages Act 1949, because it doesn't do anyone any harm.

The only opportunity to have done it was during the Same Sex Marriage debate: a government with a manifesto commitment, a massive majority, a willingness to use the Parliament Act and a desire to blow shit up just to watch it burn could have presented the CofE with the choice between "marry everyone who can legally marry, including same-sex couples" and "lose your right to perform marriages". They would still have lost, I think. A lot of MPs would have refused to vote for such a nuclear move, and winning a free vote in the Commons on that position would be almost impossible. And it would have delayed the (right and proper) cause of same-sex marriage for a decade or more.

But there is long-established precedent for the CofE only marrying a proper subset of people the state will marry; that includes not only divorcees, but the astonishingly protracted C19 debate about men marrying the sisters of their late wives, and various other edge cases. Therefore the current messy compromise on this topic is not going to get re-opened, other than when at some point in the future the CofE, as is almost inevitable, gets on the right side of history and agrees to marry same-sex couples of its own volition.

Wills can cost nothing (diy or use will week to pay what you can afford with a solicitor).

They can cost nothing, but it's not a particularly good idea for them to. And there is still no getting round the fact that the provisions most people will need to protect themselves if they don't marry will cost more than a cheapo no frills wedding. There are definitely people who can't afford even the most basic wedding, that's true, but by definition those people also cannot afford to pay for a professional to draw up alternatives for them either.

I do think the idea of free registry office weddings, or free for people on low incomes at least, is interesting. One worth thinking about. Unfortunately though it's still not going to tackle ignorance, inertia and people who object to state involvement and pieces of paper. The idea that it will magically make people not sleepwalk is fanciful. But it could benefit some people. I'd like to see more research on the issue.

LoveInTokyo, please could you tell me if the marriage rate is higher in France than it is in the UK? If it is, it validates your argument.

I don’t know, how would you compare? You would need to find statistics for France and the UK which had been compiled in exactly the same way.

It wouldn’t be a fair comparison anyway because it wouldn’t take into account the fact that in France you can (and loads of people do) enter into a pacte civil as a precursor or alternative to marriage. It doesn’t give you all the same rights as marriage but for many people it is enough.

In the UK it’s marriage or nothing.

But the UK wedding venues we spoke to couldn’t get their heads round the concept that we wanted to have a ceremony without the legal part

Indeed. For the same reason that if you book a match-day box at Old Trafford they're going to be puzzled if you say you don't want to watch football.

Why did you even talk to them about "a ceremony"? What did you think they were going to be able to offer? What did you even want from them? They have a bloke who can do a legal wedding. You don't want a legal wedding. After that, you're on your own: hire a toastmaster, or a Wicca practitioner, or whatever you want.

Wedding venues are licensed to perform legal weddings, and if you want that, you need their approved room and their (or someone's) approved person. You didn't want a legal wedding. Of course they were confused. You needed a room, some food, a bar and a DJ. Any number of places could accommodate you, and they don't care whether it's a wedding, a wake or an anniversary party.

I don’t have an “ex-pat” view, by the way, I’m fully integrated into French life

“Why did you even talk to them about "a ceremony"? What did you think they were going to be able to offer? What did you even want from them? They have a bloke who can do a legal wedding. You don't want a legal wedding. After that, you're on your own: hire a toastmaster, or a Wicca practitioner, or whatever you want.”

Good, so we have one person saying that hotels can and routinely do provide this service, and I obviously didn’t frame my request clearly enough and therefore I am wrong/an idiot and another person saying, of course they can’t provide this kind of service, what did you expect?

Sounds like in France people do in fact have more freedom to celebrate their marriage exactly the way they want.

Sounds like in France people do in fact have more freedom to celebrate their marriage exactly the way they want

Actually they have less. Because there is only one way to get married. There is much more freedom in the UK, because there are so many ways to do it.
Surely that is obvious to anyone?

Agree in buckets! People who want all the fiscal and legal advantages of marriage without the marriage certificate are selfish - they want to have their cake, eat it and then have it all over again.

I really can't make up my min if they are truly selfish or are simply incapable of making up their minds......

nd another person saying, of course they can’t provide this kind of service, what did you expect?

Who's saying that? Not me, for sure.

Slievenamon

Only in the sense that they need to go to the Mairie, have someone recite parts of the civil code for about ten minutes, say “oui” and sign the register. The crucial part is that after that they can do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want.

Because the system is based on the fact that the vows and the music and the dress and the food and drink and all the rest of it have got absolutely bugger all to do with the fact that you’ve just signed a legal contract.

That’s why ultimately the system gives people more freedom, more choice, and results in people being better informed.

AND you can get the pacte civil if you think marriage isn’t for you or you’re not ready to take that step yet.

Totally agree. If you want the benefits, get married. If you disagree with the whole wedding industry, rigmarole etc or religion just pop down your local registry office and get on with your life.

Only in the sense that they need to go to the Mairie, have someone recite parts of the civil code for about ten minutes, say “oui” and sign the register. The crucial part is that after that they can do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want

Yes, only in the sense that there is only one way to get legally married, as I said. One way, no choice. So less freedom to choose.

Anyone can do the exact same in the UK as you do in France, the exact same. But they can also choose to do lots of other things.

More options is MORE, not less.

you can't get your head around the fact that the way you do it in France is already fully available in the UK, can you?

For anyone interested, marriage rates are lower in France than the UK according to this EU data:

ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Crude_marriage_rate,_selected_years,1960-2015(per_1_000_persons).png

2014 is the last year they had data for both, the crude rate was 3.7 per 1000 in France as opposed to 4.5 in the UK. France seems to be at the lower end of the scale wrt marriages amongst EU countries.

“Anyone can do the exact same in the UK as you do in France, the exact same. But they can also choose to do lots of other things.”

Except when we tried to do in the UK what you can easily do in France and was met with blank stares and confusion.

PaulDacre thanks for the stats. I suspect this is because of the availability of the pacte civil though.

There are fewer reasons to get married in France. If you are PACSed you become someone’s next of kin and benefit from various tax exemptions and advantages that are also available to married people.

I think the legal treatment of a couple’s property is different too, so either way there are more options to share your property or keep it separate, whether you get married or PACSed. And there is less uncertainty around wills and intestacy because a certain proportion of your estate goes to certain beneficiaries (e.g. children) so you have less freedom to dispose of your property as you wish anyway.

So the ease of legal marriage in France doesn't lead to higher uptake, the reverse in fact. That kind of puts that one to bed, then.

Read what I posted about the pacte civil.

Except when we tried to do in the UK what you can easily do in France and was met with blank stares and confusion.

Did they say they wouldn’t let you use their venue or did they just not understand what you wanted because it’s so much less common to do it that way?

Fwiw, we nearly did what you did, (or tried to, sorry I’m not sure whether you ended up doing it or not), when we got married, as we left it rather late and thought our church wasn’t going to be available on the day we’d booked our reception for; we’d booked it way in advance and didn’t get round to the ceremony as there was a debate over which flavour of church we would use - dh was raised Catholic and I’m a practicing Christian, who isn’t Catholic. By the time we had decided it wasn’t free. So we then booked the registry office for the Wednesday prior to the Saturday of the reception and were going to have just a couple of witnesses at that, then a blessing at the reception. Nobody batted an eyelid about it. Maybe as we’d already told the reception venue when we booked that we wouldn’t be getting married there anyway?

In the end the church freed up and we had it all on the same day.

Surely France's marriage rates include the pact civil, given that's the legal part?

DanceDisaster, I think they understood what we wanted once we had explained it, but didn’t know how to go about it without having a registrar to come and perform the ceremony. They didn’t really get why we wanted a ceremony with no religious or legal aspect. I think it’s easier if you want there to be a religious or spiritual aspect because then you can, as you say, just have a blessing.

Surely France's marriage rates include the pact civil, given that's the legal part?

No, they are very distinct. The PACS is more comparable to a British civil partnership (with a few differences), but is available to heterosexual couples.

Bluelady, no the pacte civil isn’t the legal part of marriage, it’s a completely different thing.

In France you can get married with a prenup, married without a prenup, get a pacte civil (which is like a “light” version of marriage), or not get married.

More choice than in the UK, where your options are limited to getting married or not getting married.

I’m sure some people who get married in the UK would get a pacte civil if they could. It doesn’t have exactly the same legal significance as marriage (no good for applying for citizenship, for example), but it gives some of the same rights and advantages. And it’s much easier to dissolve.

I do think it is something of a sign of unconscious heterosexual privilege to dismiss marriage out of hand as an antiquated or patriarchal structure. Marriage equality has been a hard fought battle for those men and women who have campaigned for their partnerships to be given the legal status of marriage, and we should remember that it is still not available everywhere in the UK.

Obviously I was confused, thank you for clarifying that.