Repeal the 8th

[SnowWhitesRestingBitchFace]

So DH and I are currently visiting my DF and DStepM in Southern Ireland (where I grew up).

Just answered the door to a couple who are looking for support in the referendum and wanted us to pledge that we would vote no.

No for context I am just 6 weeks away from giving birth to DC3 (so clearly very heavily pregnant) and they still had the audacity to argue with me when I said I didn't agree with them and I supported any woman's right to decide what happens to her body.

They started trying to show me pictures of 10 week old babies in the womb (not necessary obviously in the circumstances) and weren't pleased that I didn't agree with them given that I'm carrying a baby myself.

I'm sorry I don't really have an actual AIBU I just wanted to rant a bit and show support for the people who have to face this absolute shit every day until the referendum. We're going home to the UK on Thursday so I won't have it all thrown in my face anymore but I just think the guilt tripping is horrendous 😞

I can’t imagine a set of circumstances in which I would have an abortion, it’s just inconceivable to me. But I think the thing is it doesn’t really matter what I can imagine or conceive does it? Just because I can’t see a situation where I’d consider an abortion doesn’t mean that I can’t accept that other people can and do experience that exact situation.

I find this referendum so difficult because I feel so anti abortion and in many ways completely agree with a lot on the no side (logic not tactics) - but fundamentally I think the abortion should be the choice- not yes/no vote. And that’s why I’m voting yes.

One of the things about the no campaign that annoys me is the idea that an abortion is so reprehensible but it’s ok if you have been raped. As though it’s not the mothers fault she’s pregnant so she should be absolved in some way but not mothers who “got” pregnant. I think that’s insane. That how you got pregnant is the deciding factor rather than your mental state????

I feel the more this campaign goes on the more the no side is getting aggressive but not the yes- but then I am biased.

I can definitely see any set of circumstances where I got pregnant now, over 40, using 2 forms of contraception DH had the snip, 2 our of 3 children with AN, both working full time and not enough time for another child as being a viable consideration for an abortion. Before I got to this stage of my life I would have said I’d never have one either. Now another child would be a pretty insurmountable obstacle for my existing family (and probably the result of rape since I have never had the slightest inkling to cheat on DH). The more I have lived the more I can see and have lived the grey areas life throws at you.

So many of the personal stories I have read start with 'I was totally against abortion until....'

@stayathomer - We talk about shifting the problem to the UK, but you have to admit a lot of people would reconsider if they had to make plans to travel.

I actually think more women are likely to have an abortion under the current regime. A woman gets pregnant. For whatever reason, she decides this is a disaster and she needs to have an abortion. She immediately starts working out the logistics of doing so. She finds a clinic, books an appointment, books flight, maybe books accommodation. Organises time off work. Doesn't tell anyone, except maybe her partner or best friend. Travels alone or maybe with one other person. Has the abortion and comes home. Worries about the potential after-effects but has no medical care as abortion is illegal.

All she has thought of is the practical side of procuring the abortion, not whether abortion is the correct choice or not.

Now consider the same scenario if abortion is available locally, with the proposed legislation.

The woman finds herself pregnant. She can go to her doctor who can help her by recommending counselling or can counsel her him/herself. The woman must wait 72 hours for counselling/reflection. The doctor will organise the termination so, rather than concentrating on the logistics of procuring the abortion, the woman can concentrate on whether the abortion is the correct decision for her. She can get help to make the correct decision for her, rather than making a decision in a panic that ends up sweeping her along once it has been put into motion.

This is the true meaning of pro--choice. Allowing the woman to make a choice and giving her whatever resources she needs to make that choice. The current situation results in many woman making a rushed decision, rather than a carefully considered choice. I would prefer women to make the choice that is best for them. They can only do that if they have support. Some women will need very little support to make the correct choice, others will need a lot of support.

and you're less likely to change your mind at the last minute when you've spent all that time and money to go abroad, knowing that you can't come back another day.

Totally agree with those points. If a woman has last minute doubts, she is less likely to change her mind as she knows it's now or never.
Figures from other countries have shown a drop in the abortion rate after liberalising the laws, especially if coupled with good sex education and free contraception (which we don't currently have in Ireland).

Well no matter how you wrap it, it’s still a living thing you’re killing off. So it’s still murder. So personally, I could never have abortion. I do have a lot of sympathy for women that need to have a medical abortion or have been raped. While I’m not religious, I also believe in life after death, so the unwanted soul is still around. Not something I would like to be confronted with when my times up. At the end of the day, not my body, actions and not my conscience that has to live with it....

Well no matter how you wrap it, it’s still a living thing you’re killing off. So it’s still murder

Except no, its not. Is it murder to use antibiotics? Bacteria are living things too.
It's not a person, its not murder. And don't tell everyone else they have to agree with your personal definitions.

@Sunshinedaze - key definitions relating to murder

Murder = the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Human being = a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens

Child = a young person, especially between infancy and youth

Oops. Forgot the definition of unlawful.

Unlawful = not conforming to, permitted by, or recognised by law.

Well no matter how you wrap it, it’s still a living thing you’re killing off. So it’s still murder. So personally, I could never have abortion

You won't have to have an abortion.

It's not murder. Opinions are not fact. We might as well say those voting no are supporting murder. Because no matter how you wrap it, women have died because of the 8th amendment.

Also wjy

@Sunshinedaze how dare you say that about anyone who has a termination.! I didn't murder my baby. We made a decision based on what we felt we could handle based on abnormalities.

Hope you never have to go through anything like what we went through. It was very much a wanted baby.

Sunshine I hope you are one of those people who lives exclusively on air and sunshine. Because plants are living things too, you know. Think of that poor carrot, screaming as you bite into it...

May the 4th be with you.

...and may the 8th be Repealed.

Let's hope you never find yourself in an unexpected situation where 'murder' might be the only option for you Sunshinedaze*

I'd hope that sunshine is vegan too

Well no matter how you wrap it, it’s still a living thing you’re killing off. So it’s still murder. So personally, I could never have abortion. I do have a lot of sympathy for women that need to have a medical abortion or have been raped. While I’m not religious, I also believe in life after death, so the unwanted soul is still around. Not something I would like to be confronted with when my times up. At the end of the day, not my body, actions and not my conscience that has to live with it....

And that's your choice for you, one you're free to make. Please allow others the same choice too. No-one ever knows what they'll do unless they are actually in circumstances they never believed could happen to them for whatever reason.
As you say right now it's not your body, your actions or your conscience so you personally don't need to worry for you but allow other women to decide for themselves based on their own individual circumstances and what they feel is the best option for them.

Have you read any of the actual stories of the "in her shoes page"?

Not to derail, but this is the first time I've seen someone call it 'Southern Ireland' and not get a pasting for it

Very true, even odder if the OP is Irish. No Irish person has ever used the phrase to my knowledge!

Totally off topic but I was surprised watching , "Patrick Kielty, My Dad, the Peace Deal and Me" that he used the term.

Back on topic.

I'm English and I've never even visited Ireland but I have been following on twitter and the thing that concerns me about the 'pro life' camp is the lack of thought many have.

My mum's no longer around but she was a member of SPUC. We have had conversations eg when Savita Halappanavar died and she would just say, "well in my opinion that wouldn't have been an abortion" or when my cousin had an abortion she completely denied that she had. She knew my cousin was pregnant and that her baby would not survive (no brain) and that she had a 'medical procedure' and after that she was no longer pregnant.

I've come across similar in (RC run by sisters of mercy) school, although that was a long time ago.

I really hope this happens, sating 'good luck' sounds trite so I hope reason provides the correct result.

I'll be voting yes but I do know quite a few people who are voting no.

My friend (professional, late thirties, 2 kids) told me that a vote yes is a vote to stop a beating heart. I know a nurse who is voting no because she thinks some girls will use it as contraception if it is 'easily available'.

My husband is undecided - he read about what might be done in a termination that is not done in the early stages and he keeps mentioning that anytime I try to talk about it to him.

I try not to talk about it to people as it is so emotive. I have 'liked' a lot of Yes stuff on Facebook but think it's going to be a very close vote.

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the tactics of the anti-choice crowd, but the latest example has me really enraged. I was watching something on YouTube yesterday and the ad in advance was an anti-choice one. I watched it, even though I knew it would annoy me but wasn't prepared for what I actually saw.

A woman with a strong Dublin accent (I have one myself before anyone thinks I'm being disparaging) set out what was essentially a conspiracy theory about the introduction of abortion being about weeding out the children of the poor and disadvantaged. Basically, how it was a deliberate action designed to ensure that only the children of the wealthy and privledged would be allowed to thrive. That there was no help for those of lesser means if they wanted to keep their children etc etc and implying they'd be forced to have an abortion, against their will.

I was totally gobsmacked. The production values were extremely high, all lovely shots of children running around, playing, smiling etc while this woman set out the craziest conspiracy theory I've heard in a long time.

For the nurse who said she is worried it will be used as contraception, as ridiculous at this sounds, whilst living in a country where it is legal, I once met a girl who quite comfortably told me that she'd had three. She was in the first half of her twenties and she was comfortable telling me after only knowing me for a couple of weeks and in passing, as if it was no big deal. One may be an accident, but to let that happen three times and not care?

However that is one girl of many I have met in my life. So it does happen with that kind of attitude, but it isn't something I have come across very often. I do believe that during time in a high school in a place where it was available, although none of my friends did (two fell pregnant and had children at 16/17, their choice and they've never regretted it), I believe from speaking with teachers that it did tend to happen now and again. The reason was not medical, too young.

I prefer not to know if a friend has taken the route for non medical reasons. It makes me uncomfortable, I will not judge a friend and most definitely will not criticise them, no one needs to be told to feel guilty, but I wouldn't like that it had happened. It's not my business. So unless someone needed my help, I don't want to know.

To be honest I think friends would specifically avoid telling me personally because I work with orphaned and abandoned babies in Africa, they know how important I feel these children, who may not have been born if there was an option available, are. So I'm not the first person to share the story with! Otherwise of everyone I have ever known, I know of two non-medical cases. Both gave the reason "not ready yet" i.e. not convenient. I don't think that's ok and I wish I didn't know, but I would never say anything. It's not my choice to make in someone else's case.

On the point of woman have died because of the 8th, many, many women die due to pregnancy, during birth, post birth in developing countries because it is a very risky and dangerous time. It isn't risk free. Let's not suggest the reason was the 8th as if it is a murderous action when it was a medical intervention that wasn't available. Yes in medical cases where the mother's life is at risk it should be available, but it's not just about medical reasons. Really the point of contention seems to be the "convenience" (for want of a better word) option.

I don't understand why there isn't a much heavier push for sex education and free contraception. Isn't this a middle ground?

Oh also, does consideration of adoption never come up?

In the more religious parts of the States, often the decision in a healthy pregnancy is raise the child or have an adoption. The adoption figures are much higher and certainly there is no shortage of people who would jump at the chance to adopt.

It may not be easy to give up a child or go through a pregnancy, but it seems to me that there should be a responsibility for actions leading to pregnancy in the first place.

All I hear is shouting to the extremes from the two sides, no discussion of realistic measures that have common ground.

I think for 2 reasons. That would be so incredibly painful. And you'd be so judged. Judged for having a baby judged for giving away a baby. Pitied. Talked about. Realistically, if you have 3 children and know u cannot cope with a 4th, but had the forth and put it up for adoption, that child would grow up to feel particularly rejected. It is not a realistic middle ground. Normally i hate polarised black or white choices but grey in this instance is more inhumane.

The Oireachtas committee also made recommendations for improved sex education and free contraception. But that's not a middle ground.

The 8th amendment affects all women during pregnancy because they do not have the right to informed consent. This is in HSE documentation. This means the breaking of waters, episiotomy and intnernal exams (to name a few) can be done without consent.

So it's really not just about abortion. It's about health care, of which, abortion is a part.

With respect to adoption, there are a few politicians touting adoption as an alternative to abortion but adoption is an alternative to raising a child yourself, not an alternative to pregnancy and birth.

From the figures we have for abortion among Irish women the majority are already mothers. As far as I can determine, In order to place a baby for adoption they would need to claim they are also unfit to mother the children they already have. I know that not worded very well but I can't, at the moment think of another way to write it.

I'm not sure what you mean by responsibility for actions leading to pregnancy in the first place? Are you suggesting that pregnancy is a punishment for women who dared to have sex? Or just those who didn't use contraception? Or those who used contraception that failed?

Yes I'm aware that's quite inflammatory but that's how your statement reads to me, maybe you could clarify so I know exactly what you mean?

Personally I believe all the things you mentioned - better sex education, free contraception, better information about adoption should all be improved and more widespread but they are not and will never be an alternative to removing the 8th amendment from our constitution.

Quite frankly I'm sick of feeling like a second class citizen in my own country because of my gender. I deserve better.