Repeal the 8th

[SnowWhitesRestingBitchFace]

So DH and I are currently visiting my DF and DStepM in Southern Ireland (where I grew up).

Just answered the door to a couple who are looking for support in the referendum and wanted us to pledge that we would vote no.

No for context I am just 6 weeks away from giving birth to DC3 (so clearly very heavily pregnant) and they still had the audacity to argue with me when I said I didn't agree with them and I supported any woman's right to decide what happens to her body.

They started trying to show me pictures of 10 week old babies in the womb (not necessary obviously in the circumstances) and weren't pleased that I didn't agree with them given that I'm carrying a baby myself.

I'm sorry I don't really have an actual AIBU I just wanted to rant a bit and show support for the people who have to face this absolute shit every day until the referendum. We're going home to the UK on Thursday so I won't have it all thrown in my face anymore but I just think the guilt tripping is horrendous 😞

Well now LuluMarie when you have a middle ground that allows a woman choose whether or not to go through pregnancy be sure to let us know. Adoption would NOT have been an option for me or any of the others I know and it's not an option for women that have medical complications. How dare you imply a lack of responsibility?

Are you really using religious parts of the US as a comparison? Which other bits do you like - the Daddy Daughter virgin ring ceremonies? The conversion camps for gay teens? Politicians that believe rape cannot result in pregnancy and contraception is for 'sluts' and prostitutes? Please. We had that attitude here and it led to such wonderful solutions as the Magadalene laundries and babies sold to Australia and the US. Fun.

There is a realistic measure. Repeal the 8th, and introduce legislation that allows realistic choices - if you are anti-abortion don't have one. Not rocket science is it? And yes you better believe there is shouting - this is an issue I for one will not stop shouting for.

The adoption rights organisation are calling for repeal and are very angry at the suggestion that adoption is a simple solution. They point to research showing that adoption is very rarely chosen by women who have a crisis pregnancy. They either opt to terminate or raise they child themselves.

Katiepoes

I absolutely was not implying a lack of responsibility and I wasn't referring to medical complications. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear and you are upset. If you read back to comments I have made before (I'll find them for you and put it below), I have repeatedly have said what a hideous tragedy it is for anyone to have to face the loss of a pregnancy for medical reasons, mother, child or both. Whether it is a terrible decision that has to be made, or a decision made for the situation, it's hideous. It is for the family and it is intensely private. There's no doubt about that.

By taking responsibility, I'm thinking of examples, which I have seen in a country where it is available, where mostly it is chosen because the timing isn't right. Not a "oh god how can I cope with or afford a child or another child right now", but "Oh I've just finished university and want to go travelling first, or I want to wait until I'm 30, not 25 as I am now".

That's where I am raising the question of responsibility. Not fact, question. If someone falls pregnant after putting themselves in a situation where they know this is a very possible outcome, when they could healthily go ahead, is not in a difficult situation, it literally just isn't perfect timing (when is life ever perfect), should there be concern about the choice being made on convenience rather than taking responsibility for what some argue/feel is a life? That was the context and it was a question. It blurs into the belief of whether we are talking about cells or a child, the woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body for "convenience" (again I hate this word, I mean not health reasons, medical reason, not difficult reasons, not very young, literally just oh no it doesn't suit me right now).

I raised this because a poster just before me explained that she has a nurse friend who is voting no because she thinks it will be used as a rather extreme version of contraception. I explained the one occasion I had come across this and the experience, I also explained what kind of percentages of women I know and things that might effect my exposure, specifically friends not telling me.

That's paragraph one - I hope that is clear. I sorry for crossed wires. Really, believe me, I understand the tragedy and devastation of losing pregnancy/child to tragic circumstances. It is beyond pain. I know. No one in that already awful situation should have anything made any worse, that includes any outside party judging or making them feel any worse. It is already the biggest pain we can feel I believe. I know.

For the US, no I'm not getting into all sorts of religious culture there, that is an entirely different topic and not relevant. I was simply moving to the topic of adoption, I used adoption in the US as an example because statically there are more newborn arranged adoptions across all of the US, particularly where belief systems come into play, because an individual who feels they cannot raise a child prefers to avoid a non medical termination and is culturally much more comfortable with adoption. I have not given a child up for adoption, I do however want to adopt based on my work and I have seen adoption first hand with little ones otherwise abandoned or unable to be kept adopted to both local and international families. I see how beautiful this is, how incredible it is for all involved, so I believe in this. My question, and again this was a question I was raising, was would it be better if we were seeing a spectrum of options being explored (including making adoption less nearly impossible), rather than this polar debate that seems to have emerged.

That extends to birth control and sex education too, much simpler of course, taking the pill or using a barrier method is not the same as carrying, birthing and giving up a child, but it is another place where the cases of people facing the termination situation outside of health and medical grounds because they did not wish to be pregnant in the first place would be reduced. Again there doesn't seem to be discussion of this as much as the polar opposites. I've read terrible things said about both sides, neither acceptable, this is the dialogue facing people every day at the moment.

Middle ground, I mean birth control for example. The person saying the woman should have complete autonomy for a termination for whatever reason because it is her body and she doesn't want to be pregnant or have a child would be satisfied because with successful birth control (yes I know it is not 100% but it is far better than 0%) the woman would not be pregnant in the first place. Meanwhile the person saying the healthy foetus in a healthy carrier is a life that should not be ended because it is an act they are strongly against would also be satisfied, because no pregnancy means no foetus means no stopping anything.

For your questions about my beliefs on incestous rape, gay conversion camps, rape not being classified as leading to pregnancy or consent meaning it is not rape even if the female is eleven years old (it's not just the US, the latter happened recently in France) or the nonsense about contraception, Ill not share my very, very obvious views on all of that. I appreciate you are angry and this is an emotive issue for you so I am also not going to kick of at the suggestion that I would support any of these things or even find them sane.

I am female, I am educated, I am well travelled, I know pain, mine and others, I know discrimination, I know empathy, I know respect. I know what leads today to children finding themselves in children's home and orphanages and I know what life is like in these places in several countries. I know the politics, history, culture and economics that has lead to this. This is what I do with my life. I am also female and therefore I know discrimination at the highest levels. I know person pain with respect to children that was so hideous I though I would die of the devastation. My mind is not empty, my life is not vacuous, nor is my intellect, compassion or soul.

Incidentally the children's homes I know of and have worked with are not like those hideous places which previously existed in Ireland and babies are never sold (Hague convention strictly enforced, Cambodia was removed from adoption completely due to concerns that trafficking had taken place, it was not reinstated because the laws are strict beyond strict). That was a past time and a different culture. The reality now is a solution, not ideal, but children are loved, educated, cared for, fed and protected. They are also happy. So no, it's not relevant to compare to a dark past from another time. This is not the world now.

So, I am sorry that my questions (I am not telling anyone what to do, I am trying to discuss, listen and learn, which I am finding incredibly difficult because of all the aggressive shouting and complete refusal to budge by two highly emotive camps) on this very emotive issue led to such an emotive response from you. I expect it is closed personal and that is why I have not shouted back or taken offence at the suggestion I would be in the same stratosphere as Daddy daughter gay conversion virgin cult inbred patriarchy discrimination who paid Stormi Daniels Racism and confederate memorials via lynching recognitions one child policy China baby girls literally, well good god I can't even repeat the horrors of what happens re infanticide in China and many parts of India should Iraq have been invaded is the pope a catholic F it chuck in Brexit and probably parent child parking in supermarkets since we're here for a fight too whatever else.

Usually I would be a bit offended, but this is so emotive. I have no desire to upset you any more. I do not know your private life, from your response it seems you had a terrible time and I feel for you. So you can shout at me over crossed wires in an emotive situation, but please understand the crossed wires. It isn't pleasant for me to have unpleasant and untrue things suggested of me, I'm sure you understand that and of course, whilst I am not for shouting from either side of a barrier as a solution and instead want compassion, understanding, respect (in all directions!) and solutions that do not hurt or divide, this does not mean I do not have deep emotions or personal experience, insight, knowledge and pain. I'm just not shouting.

I'm not sure if those shouting realise that this is not the way to be heard. Each side all shout the same thing, preaching to the converted, pushing further divisions between sides and putting off those who wish to consider their position without feeling they are joining a side in a war and are not even allowed to consider their position as this is shameful. Shouting aggressively and dismissing others has never worked as a tactic in persuasion.

You are slightly and sadly misplaced on your assumptions of me and telling me how I think and what I should do. If I am anti-abortion (I am not, I have always made that clear!), I can simply not have an abortion and there, it is so obvious, "not rocket science?". So I and my place in the conversation, as a woman too I note, are vacuous and unimportant and my self is not relevant.

Just shut up, go away and and don't have an abortion if I am so anti-it, that's the solution being offered to me. (Where is the compassion and space for a woman or family upset with abortion in an irretrievable medical situation in this solution? Everyone must be included, with thought and compassion. Not just your way and everyone else is so unimportant and wrong that they are irrelevant.

However thank you for your not rocket science advice to me.

As it happens you don't need to worry. I can't have an abortion. I can't fall pregnant. I lost my womb, and my babies with it, to cancer. I was in my mid twenties.

I know pain. I know pregnancy, children, unwanted children, lost children, mothers without children, children with mothers, prejudice, discrimination, injustice and the extremes of life. I know love and I know devastation and loss.

I don't have the energy left to shout. I wouldn't know where to start.

I do know that shouting achieves nothing.

So I could ignore this topic entirely in, with a you all don't know how lucky you are attitude, but that is not me. I am trying to approach this with respect and with compassion. My views and input should be valid too should they not. Or at least let me be kind, thoughtful and compassionate in amongst this tragic discussion. Someone has to be.

Hi TheVeryThing

Adoption and Repeal are not mutually exclusive of course.

For the research you mention TheVeryThing , that is exactly my point. Woman opt largely for raise the child themselves or termination. Why is adoption not considered? It is a middle ground as I mentioned.

In other countries and other cultures, adoption is either one of the two main options, or wherever possible it is simply a way of life. It is also deeply celebrated by those who participate within european culture.

Of course adoption is by no means easy to implement, but it is largely recognised and a matter than is relatively ignored. There is no doubt that adoption can and should be significantly improved. There are 14 million children orphaned on the planet. At least. There are difficult decisions about terminating a crisis pregnancy as you referred to it. Why is the option of adoption not more accessible and considered more widely. There is an improvement to be made that would suit both sides at least.

Humans are humans, so there is not something fundamentally acceptable about adoption for one particular culture, place or race that is fundamentally unacceptable for another.

So my point was, why is adoption not discussed more, brought into culture more, made a more accessible option? No one would argue that adoption is a wonderful thing and no one loses out, in particular a child is blessed and a blessing. So why are we hearing shouting on either side of extremes, but no discussion of solutions that may be more tolerable to both positions and offer a solution in more scenarios. It is sad that nothing truly good and not tragic will come of this vote, when with a different approach, perhaps more could.

snuffykins

We are on the same page here. I agree with what you are saying.

By responsibility, to be clear, I do not mean punishment. That would be obscene.

I mean, say I have sex, knowing I could fall pregnant because I am a consenting adult and understand the mechanism because I have full access to education.

I then make a choice to take this chance. I fall pregnant perhaps because contraception was not used (I know it is not 100% but it is by no means 0% ).

As an adult, a female, who wishes to be respected and treated as a responsible, equal and cognisant adult and not a second class citizen to (heterosexual white) males, there is always a need for our generation to behave in a way that is befitting of this. We should not have to, but for now, we still have to in order to progress and be respected.

So if I fall pregnant, by my own choices, knowing it is a possibility, perhaps not avoiding this carefully enough, as a woman who insists I am responsible, independent, strong... should I be responsible for the consequences of my actions i.e. a child who I take responsibility for.

It is a question to be clear and a complex one. (Of course this is the non medical situation).

Equally as you note, the equality gap makes you feel like a second class citizen, being told what to do by a patriarchy makes us all second class citizens.

As we work to get through this patriarchy in any way we can, yes we should make our own decisions. However what the decision should be is not then clear. Is a woman exerting her power by choosing to terminate an inconvenient pregnancy, or is she exerting her power by standing tall within responsibilities that come from her previous choices, which were hers to make and by owning them and having the child (assuming there are no pressing significant reasons not to), are women claiming their power to move forward in life and not have to adapt to a male oriented world.

It's complex no doubt.

For procedures during a birth without consent, urgh. There is definitely a sense of the female body not actually belonging to us. Not only in medical procedures, but in the way we are leered at, groped, assaulted. It is so violating. Refusing a pregnancy on these grounds is of course not the reality, but it is a challenge to be female. It is a challenge to be human, we all have our struggles.

I hope that makes sense. It's nice chatting to you, thank you for writing,

Lu

JaiPo

I see what you are saying.

For me, I would prefer to have a child could not keep and allow the child a life with family, safe and loved.

Yes it would be hard, but it would be me who got pregnant so I would have to take responsibility for that. I also happen to feel that a foetus is a life. This feeling (and it a feeling, a moral belief, it is not something I present as a fact) would lead me to wish to protect this child and give them everything I could.

Adopted children in my experience, through their adoptive parents who are to them their parents, do not feel rejected. They are very much wanted and loved. Yes a child would have to come to understand what happened as they grow up, but the simple fact would be that a birth mother wanted to give them the best life possible, made a big sacrifice by going through her part and letting the child go, that the circumstances were impossible and their real (adoptive) family is the one they were meant for.

\yes the judgement and talking is a fair point, people are terrible for that. I would ignore it for the sake of my belief in the child, but I am a bit more headstrong than others. I know than many characters cannot withstand even the thought of gossip, judgement or peer pressure over comparatively small things. So that would be hard. If adoption were more normalised, there would be less of this in general, unrelated to the current debate (just as same sex couples used to be an underground oddity, now they are married couples with children and beautiful happy families). Someone always has to go first, society learns and catches up.

It's complex I know and we do all come at it with our own beliefs. I happen to be a very positive believer in adoption and I know it to be beautiful and wonderful, without these issues. However I am shaped by my experiences and my generation.

My mother actually became pregnant as a teenager, she was not allowed to keep the child but termination was not an option, so she gave birth and had the child taken away. I know she felt differently about the child who was adopted and the children she raised, because the adopted child was the child of another, but she said for years afterwards she had the sensation of the child who she had not been allowed to keep tugging on her skirt. She would also speak very highly of adoption, but she could speak to having to give up a child, the painful sacrifice. I can only speak to the joyful part of a lost child joining a family.

Oh it just tragic all round isn't it.

Thanks for sharing your views with me, I hadn't considered the judgement as pact because it is not something that would affect me, but of course we are talking about solutions for everyone, not one group, one belief, one life, one individual. Really its a case of trying to take care of everyone, in such a difficult situation.

I think I need to take a break from discussing, it's becoming emotional.

Take care

Adoption isn't even an option for married women in Ireland, it legally can;t be done. And its very difficult if you aren't married. Domestic adoption pretty much doesn't actually exist in Ireland.

IronMansIronButt

I know. Adoption is placed so far down the list of political priorities that it is practically ignored. Vulnerable children are left in the uncertainty of foster care situations, not knowing where home is or if they will ever be wanted again, all the time become older and therefore more difficult to find adoptive parents for. The children often have a sad history of physical or sexual abuse and for as long as they are in the confusing limbo of foster care, this is not treated as well as it needs to be and the trauma becomes more complex. This again makes adoptive families more difficult to find, as perhaps a child needs a female or male person to always be present for bath time or getting dressed, some families feel that these special needs of the children are more than they can cope with, it goes on.

Meanwhile there are good, loving people who would immediately open their home to a child in need, but as you say and for lots of other really ridiculous reasons, the prospective parents are rejected.

The fact that a person who falls pregnant but for whatever reasons feels she cannot raise the child cannot look with confidence to an adoption system to care for the child is taking away a choice and moreso, pushing a person towards one of two polar decisions.

So everyone loses. It really says something that in a country where termination of a pregnancy that a person decided she cannot go ahead with requires either some level of secretive travel overseas for a not fully monitored afterwards medical procedure, or incredibly risky and dangerous attempts an inducing the termination or the awful prospect of backstreet procedures, still as you say, domestic adoption pretty much doesn't exist, so pregnancies that are not planned to end in raising a child are not by and large resolved by adoption. Would all of these people go to these unpleasant and daunting lengths if there was another option on the table?

For prospective adoptive parents too, it's a problem if you are married, it's a problem if you are not, it's a problem if you are "too old", it's a problem if you have health challenges (who doesn't), it's a problem if you want to go back to work, it's a problem if you are of difference race to the child, it's a problem if you are of basically any nationality, it's a problem if you can't wait many years and still be the desired age, it's a problem if you are overweight, underweight, have children, don't have children, want to adopt internationally, good god it is ridiculous.

I know one couple who were turned down because they were both reasonably educated, nothing unusual, university level, and they had reasonably good jobs, nothing very unusual. The social worker said the concern was that the couple were "too bookish", meaning that they were of reasonable intelligence and what if they were matched with a child who was not intelligent, how would they cope. The same way all other parents cope with the fact that children are unique and not a carbon copy of any of their biological relatives, but for that the social worker said no and a child missed a chance. It's a disgrace, really.

9 Irish women a day have abortions for many reason. A small number may have them as an alternative to contraceoption. That is not likely to change if abortion up to 12 weeks is introduced in Ireland. Repealing the 8th will not make women suddenly decide to have abortions they are already having them.

Repealing the 8th will improve women's healthcare. That is why the Institute of Obstetricans and Gynaecologists is calling for a yes vote.

My xmil was given away in an informal afoption. Her bio mother had so many kids and her sister had none. So she gave number 8 away. And then she couldnt cope with that and got pregnant and kept the 9th. That fucked up my xmil who did a superb job of fucking up 50% of her own children.

Adoption is not a humane perfect answer. It is not realistic at all.

JaiPo

Respectfully (and I would ask for the same respect for my family), I have seem nothing but incredibly happy, flourishing, lovely adoptive families. All joy, lots of compassion, lovely to be near.

Be respectful of adoptive families, parents and children please. I have seen and experienced remarkable things, across the board. These children and families change the world. Not everyone can say that

Children aren't a commodity that can be redistributed, respectfully.

I have cousins who were adopted. One is content. One is not. So in my experience it's about 50% success rate, but maybe we could say the success rate for raising birth children (if you measure it by how grounded, strong and content they are in adult life) is only marginally higher than 50%.

I have respect for everybody who feels that abortion is sad, but I cannot really ''respect'' anybody who seeks to keep a law that prevents other people from acting in accordance with their own conscience and circumstances. A trite way of saying that is ''if you don't want an abortion, don't have one'' and that really is respectful. Nobody will make you have one, but please return the respect and cease from trying to keep an horrifically cruel law that prevents others from doing what is right for them. That is in itself so disrespectful and cruel.
I hope you change your mind before the 25th.

As somebody said, it's an alternative to raising a child but it is not an alternative to pregnancy and birth.

Imagine going in to work in this day and age and announcing that you would be needing time off for ante natal appointments and then saying 'the baby has been adopted'. WHO could do that?! That'd be as socially unfathomable as having a baby out of wedlock was when my mum was a teen.

Anyone could do it.

This is mindless comment.

telling me to ''be quiet'' is hardly respectful. Not that I'm upset but you're ordering me to respect you whilst telling me to be quiet. I agree with the poster that says you are at best naive about the realities of adoption. It is not a wonderful solution to redistribute children. That is disrespectful to pain people have suffered.

You don’t know me, pain I have suffered, anything about my beliefs and you are projecting your own miserable attitude into discrimination towards adoptive families. Naive is the last thing I am when it comes to this subject area and I’m actually laughing at you for being so silly as to suggest that.

Really, be quiet!

@LuluMarie - commenting on issues with adoption is not insulting to adoptive families. Not all adoptions are successful. Some adoptions break down completely, some are difficult and some are successful. That is the reality.

While you might see adoption as a solution to a pregnancy you did not want, not all women feel the same. There would be a stigma attached to giving up a child. Many women would find that very difficult to deal with. Forcing a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy and telling her adoption is the solution is akin to The Handmaid's Tale where fertile women are forced to bear children for infertile couples. This is a completely unacceptable abuse of a woman's bodily autonomy.

There is a huge gap - physical and emotional - between early pregnancy and giving birth. Forcing a woman to carry to term when she doesn’t want to is not the solution here.

What is to happen to women who are already mothers and do not want or can not afford another child?

I heard a story of a woman whose husband was diagnosed with a terminal illness; she found out she was pregnant and they already had 3 young children. She couldn’t cope with the pregnancy on top of her husband’s illness so wanted a termination. Because of the 8th she had to do it on her own, illegally. She was scared, she was worried for her health and for her existing children.

You have a personal particular experience of adoption lulumarie but you can’t project that experience onto all adoptions.

Lulu, take a breath, I've mentioned that xmil was informally adopted and two of my cousins were adopted and one of my other cousins adopted herself. So lots of experience of adoption in the extended family. You don't own adoption.

Of course nobody knows the pain anybody else has suffered which is PRECISELY the point. People must be allowed to make their OWN decisions.

I never imagined when I started this thread that it would become what it has but I'm really glad that it's continued.

I have two sons and am pregnant with my third. From the beginning of all my pregnancies I have believed that my babies were actually babies and not just bunches of cells/foetus's. That's honestly how I see pregnancy.

However that doesn't stop me believing so strongly that a woman should have the choice to end a pregnancy for whatever reason they choose.

It's actually shocked and saddened me how many men or on the 'No' side. Ive read a lot of debates on Facebook through stuff my friends have posted and the majority of no voters seem to be young men which I genuinely just find incredible and infuriating!

Really, be quiet!

No, I will not. Don't try and silence people telling the truth. You are naive, claiming that every adoption is a wonderful happy thing. Its not. I'm very happy for you if yours is, but that doesn't say anything about anyone elses.

And did I SERIOUSLY get deleted for simply saying that some adoptions are difficult and they are not the answer? That;s fucking INSANE.

LuluMarie where do you think you are exactly? This is a discussion board, you are on a hiding to nothing telling posters to 'be quiet' because you don't like what they are posting.

Adoption is not a panacea to an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. Women are not incubators and should have the right to decide if they want to give a child up for adoption or end a pregnancy.

I also have family members close to me who have been, or who have, adopted. In some cases successfully, in others not. I don't recognise the overly romanticised portrayal you are trying to convey here. It is as complex, wonderful, difficult, heartrending etc as many other human experience and it categorically isn't for everyone.