Repeal the 8th

[SnowWhitesRestingBitchFace]

So DH and I are currently visiting my DF and DStepM in Southern Ireland (where I grew up).

Just answered the door to a couple who are looking for support in the referendum and wanted us to pledge that we would vote no.

No for context I am just 6 weeks away from giving birth to DC3 (so clearly very heavily pregnant) and they still had the audacity to argue with me when I said I didn't agree with them and I supported any woman's right to decide what happens to her body.

They started trying to show me pictures of 10 week old babies in the womb (not necessary obviously in the circumstances) and weren't pleased that I didn't agree with them given that I'm carrying a baby myself.

I'm sorry I don't really have an actual AIBU I just wanted to rant a bit and show support for the people who have to face this absolute shit every day until the referendum. We're going home to the UK on Thursday so I won't have it all thrown in my face anymore but I just think the guilt tripping is horrendous 😞

Hi There Everyone,

We're really saddened to see a deluge of reports about posts on this thread. There's clearly a debate to be had here and we'd like to be able to host it but if posts continue to break our TGs we'll have to think carefully about whether this thread can stand.

We do understand how hard it is to keep your cool when the subject is so emotive and raw but this is a plea for calm.

Oh please don't delete it.

There really hasn't been anything terrible has there?

There's been posters who have come on with strong opinions who have the got annoyed with the arguments against these opinions. They haven't simply liked that what they thought was a solid argument was easily dismantelled.

As one of the people I suspect has been reported - will it be made clear what exactly was against the T&C? So far all I have seen is misreading of posts, an accusation of projection and general stop throwing. If that's enough will AIBU as a board be closed down?

@BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil great post and very clear

Agree that love both is a lie.

Don't think this thread should be deleted. The posts that should be removed are the goady ones that have just started in the last couple of days by from what I can see are 4 posters who clearly are for the no side.

This wouldn't be a problem in itself as of course people can have different opinions however it's when a debate becomes you are wrong and I am right. There doesn't seem to be any willingness to see any other opinion or experiences.

I have been on this thread from the beginning and feel that posters for the yes are trying to give a good insight into the reasons to vote to repeal and trying to educate people who are undecided as to why this is important for women and also how it effects your pregnancy and your treatment during pregnancy not just if you have a termination.

I have personal sad experience of this and I know first hand the horrible, cruel experience that we went through. I was made to feel like a criminal, terrified anyone would see us in the airport. It wasn't a decision we took lightly and it was the worst experience of our lives but we felt it necessary as there were abnormalities. This is nobody's business to dictate or tell us what we should or should not have done. It was our decision and we should have been looked after in our own country.

I should not have been made to go through this in another country where I didn't know anyone and couldn't be looked after by the medical professionals here.

Like has been said before you don't have to agree with abortion but that doesn't give you the right to put anyone through what I went through? I am a living human being who was made to feel like a horrible person even though it was a much wanted pregnancy.

Why have I been deleted for telling the truth, with no personal comments on anyone else?

It's sad that a thread on medical rights for women on a site for women can be at risk of deletion because some posters who are against women having these rights have kicked up a fuss. I'm really disheartened by this, I thought this was a place where those of us who support repeal could discuss the campaign, our experiences and our views without fearing reprisals from the vast numbers of misogynists trolling the internet.

I'll be honest, I'm one of the 'on the fence' people. I'm pretty sure this vote is leading us into abortion on demand. I don't know which side to listen to, a lot of medical practicioners in Ireland have come out and said that if someone requires medical help, eg cancer treatment, they would not deny them and that this is a false comment put out there. Maybe it is needed to protect rape victims and people who have pregnancies in extreme difficulties, but I worry for the 15/16 year old that sees it as the only option instead of going to their parents or getting help. My two cousins that I am very close to are adopted and one of them found out that her mother was thinking of aborting her when she became pregnant. This could be a very simple way of seeing it but if she had I wouldn't have my cousin. She, as a baby, had the possibility of becoming the fantastic, lovely, caring person who has helped me through some difficult times. I also worry that men (I have sons) could just be told 'I don't want this baby' and that would be the end of it. We talk about shifting the problem to the UK, but you have to admit a lot of people would reconsider if they had to make plans to travel. I have had multiple miscarraiges, and while this shouldn't affect my thoughts, it does. Their hearts stopped beating in my body. The earliest was 11 weeks and now I'm to think that this wasn't a little boy/girl who would go on to join our family? That they weren't actually a baby? I'm not a religous lunatic and I don't hate all women. I honestly am halfway down the middle on it but mention you are considering voting no and you are called every name under the sun. All over FB people are putting up their repeal banners and if you mention you are thinking about which way to vote you are absolutely attacked and torn to shreds. I have cried so much over this that I'm considering not voting, I don't think I can take the guilt either way. I didn't mean to write all of this but just yes voters, try not to attack no voters and vice versa. It's hard for everyone, it's not a nice vote like the last one in Ireland where people could finally get married as a result of it. This is hard.

stay I understand what you are saying about your cousin. My friend was in the same boat as your cousin. But then I think of my sister. She and I were both abused as children, she was off the scale abused. After her non childhood she was raped in a night out by the taxi driver who was meant to bring her home safely. She got pregnant as a result of that rape. She had only within that year met her now husband. She has an abortion. Was she meant to give up her adulthood as well as her childhood for rapists. She is a real person who has been dealt one of life’s shittiest hands. I thank God she was not at home on Irelabd when she was raped by that taxi driver so she could easily avail of a very early abortion. The issue is complicated but for me that very early pregnancy has no more right than the egg and sperm that existed 6 weeks before that. Yes it has the potential to become a baby but that develops with a developing pregnancy. 12 weeks is not a baby, not when it competes with the rights of real breathing women with complicated lives.

Pink I'm so sorry to hear that. And it's all part of why I'm on the fence. I heard people saying in cases of rape and then yes, you see that in Ireland most rape cases can't be proven etc. (sorry again x)

stay there are very few doctors calling for a no vote in this referendum. Look up Prof Louise Kenny and her very clear statement outlining all the problems the eighth amendment causes.
Women undergoing cancer treatment are not eligible for clinical trials if they become pregnant. It can and has cost lives.
Other women who have long term health conditions or are on medication that is incompatible with pregnancy are no longer able to access the appropriate medical care if they become pregnant. Their lives have to be at immediate risk for a termination to be permitted.

This referendum is not about my personal opinion on abortion or yours. The question is whether our personal opinions should be able to dictate the choices of women and girls, about whose lives, pregnancies and medical conditions we know absolutely nothing.
The eighth amendment affects all medical treatment in pregnancy, including the management of miscarriages.
Women do not have the same rights to consent or not to medical procedures, and this is explicitly stated in official HSE guidance.
I don't wish to be unkind, but this is not about you or your miscarriages or your adopted cousin (I have an adopted sibling). Those issues have no bearing on the life of a woman or girl experiencing a crisis pregnancy right now.
The current law backs women into a corner, where they have to make decisions in isolation, fear and shame. No one makes the best decisions in those circumstances.
The eighth amendment has to go.

Is there any other country in the world where they've enshrined unborn babies rights in the constitution?

thevery is correct. There are lots of doctors talking about how the 8th complicates their job and puts lives at risk unnecessarily.

We can have a sensible position on abortion without the 8th.

Repealing the 8th isn't just about abortion. It is about people like me who suffered life threatening illness during pregnancy and who had to wait in a hospital undergoing test every 4 hours until someone decided my life was sufficiently at risk to allow an early induction. Not an abortion, just premature induction.

Luckily for me I spontaneously went in to labour at 35 weeks. I recovered and my premature twins were healthy.

They are teenagers now and I don't want them to go through what I did. I want them to be able to make their own informed decisions if they suffer the same illness.

TheVeryThing I'm just trying to get it straight in my head.I know it isn't about me (I just need to get my head around that too, I just keep thinking'but the baby')

Laurie 'We can have a sensible position on abortion without the 8th.' That's what I hope and think sometimes, just trying to figure it out

Inniu Glad you're okay x

I think it could well be a no vote. Because people will be worried that there will be more pushing the boundaries and it will be abortion up to term next for any reason at all.

Laurie, I could be wrong but I think the Philippines is the only other country with constitutional protection for the unborn.
inniu, I'm so sorry you had that experience but very glad you are ok. It's a very clear example of why this amendment has to go. I just can't understand anyone who thinks this is ok.

Viviennemary, it's hard to call.
I was out canvassing last night and we had a clear majority of yes voters in a fairly conservative town.
I was stressing to them how important it is to actually go out and vote, there is no space for complacency.

TheVeryThing that's really good to hear and I applaud you for going out canvassing not sure I would be able to. I am quietly optimistic it will be a yes but it will be very close so every vote will count

This is hard

Is it as hard as having to have a baby when you don't want it? Is it as hard as having to go abroad for a termination when your wanted child is dying inside you and no-one will help you end their and your suffering? Is it as hard as dying from sepsis because nobody will remove the foetus with no viability that is killing you?

No, its not hard to not vote no. It's not hard to realise that your own feelings about abortion are fine, but that you shouldn't be imposing those feelings on everyone else.
Vote Yes, please. Don't make other women suffer more than they do already because of your feelings about abortion. Every child a wanted child.

Just curious to know how others are dealing with the anti choice brigade.

I haven't had any pro-life to the door yet, but if I do, I'll be telling them they can change my vote from a yes to a no in an instant if they give me two tangible, physical ways that LoveBoth support or help a woman in a crisis pregnancy after the birth.

They can't because all they are is a US funded lobby group who provide absolutely nothing in terms of actual help for a woman who needs help.

@stayathomer I completely get how you feel about 15/16 year olds, but in all truth not allowing girl access to safe abortion won't prevent them seeking ways to end their pregnancy. It'll be one without aftercare.

In situations where they can't access unsafe abortion or can't travel the they are being forced into a life event they aren t ready for, able for or don't want.

On top of that repealing is about so much more than 'abortion on demand'. Voting no to prevent this means prevent the women you feel should have access to safe abortion for probably an entire generation.

There are only few doctors that are in the no camp too. Those that work in the field of obstetrics are the ones you want to listen too.

There's a video of a GP talking about the 'facts' on thre 'No' posters. He talks about how they aren't medical facts. I'll try find it. Might be a while as I'm currently travelling and my battery is very low so can't now.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=BkF7BNCFP40

I hope the link works. Dr. tiernan Murray explains why there No posters are misleading.

I also worry that men (I have sons) could just be told 'I don't want this baby' and that would be the end of it.

This is all part of 'trust women' isn't it. Just how likely do you think this situation is? And the cold hard truth is that if the (unusal) situation arose where a woman didn't want a baby and the man did is the man going to be prepared to raise the child? Even where they are, they still will be making another human go through a pregnancy and birth when they either, can't or dont want to.

It's one of the problems isn't it that people have. When you get down to the basics - it's women having control. Total control over their bodies and lives.