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AIBU?

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Original poster

Repeal the 8th

891 replies

SnowWhitesRestingBitchFace · 10/04/2018 20:30

So DH and I are currently visiting my DF and DStepM in Southern Ireland (where I grew up).

Just answered the door to a couple who are looking for support in the referendum and wanted us to pledge that we would vote no.

No for context I am just 6 weeks away from giving birth to DC3 (so clearly very heavily pregnant) and they still had the audacity to argue with me when I said I didn't agree with them and I supported any woman's right to decide what happens to her body.

They started trying to show me pictures of 10 week old babies in the womb (not necessary obviously in the circumstances) and weren't pleased that I didn't agree with them given that I'm carrying a baby myself.

I'm sorry I don't really have an actual AIBU I just wanted to rant a bit and show support for the people who have to face this absolute shit every day until the referendum. We're going home to the UK on Thursday so I won't have it all thrown in my face anymore but I just think the guilt tripping is horrendous 😞

OP posts:
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12
mypickleliesovertheocean · 01/05/2018 22:56

The whole "I agree with abortion in cases of rape" is bullshit; it's nigh on impossible to secure a conviction for rape, how are women supposed to prove they've been raped in time to have an abortion? It's a hand-wringing, "Oh I'm pro-life but I'm not a monster" simpering statement that means nothing.

peanut2017 · 02/05/2018 06:24

Very sad to see how this thread has gone. Up to this point it was a safe space to discuss repeal the 8th.

I would respect the three posters who are saying no to repeal or are undecided if they asked genuine questions or are looking for more information on how the 8th effects pregnancy. All I can see is aggression coming from these posts.

If you knew the theme of the title and the other 800 and something posts why bother wasting your time here? You are certainly not going to change my mind,

Can we get back on track please and try to discuss repeal the 8th

Katiepoes · 02/05/2018 08:27

I do not want anyone to feel bullied -and for the record I did not say a poster was not welcome, I asked why they believed an ill-though out question would be welcome on what is very clearly a pro-repeal thread.

I am angry. I am angry that in the late second decade of the 21st century we are still fighting for reproductive freedom. I am angry that anyone dares tell women - anywhere - but especially in a supposedly modern democracy that they can damn well suck up giving birth because they do not approve. I am angry that I made that choice a very long time ago but it required travel and expense - and that is still the only option apart from dangerous self-medication. I am angry and afraid that on May 25 Ireland will choose No and send a clear message to our women - you are not a person that may have rights over your own body and future.

As of the campaign - I was cheered in Connemara last week to see a mix of posters, but a majority in favour of Yes. I was also cheered to see my rather conservative mother tell a No campaigner to mind her own business and do something constructive when she knocked on the door. This repeal has to happen, the thought of a No vote carrying it makes me feel ill. (Also angry in case you missed it :-) )

DougFargo · 02/05/2018 08:58

How can anyone have the neck to whine about being bullied when they support the systematic, long term and state supported bullying of the women of an entire country?

Annasgirl · 02/05/2018 09:37

I think all pro-choice discussions on discussion boards get infiltrated with anti-choice people trying to derail the thread. This is a tactic. Ladies, let's not get distracted by them, I choose (see choice again) not to engage. Let's all try it - ignore them the way we do with our children when they keep on and on about why can't they watch TV instead of going to bed.
I'm with you all - I cannot understand why any woman is anti-choice, it is like self directed misogyny. I use this term in RL so some of you might recognise me if you hear me!

HughLauriesStubble · 02/05/2018 10:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

inniu · 02/05/2018 10:45

I don't think anyone actually celebrates abortion but achieving the legal right to bodily autonomy is something to celebrate.

Trinity66 · 02/05/2018 11:19

U2 are supporting the Repeal side

user1485342611 · 02/05/2018 15:20

It actually boils down to one fundamental question:

Do you believe a foetus is a living, breathing human being?

If the answer is no then obviously you are going to feel that women should have the right to end a pregnancy.

If the answer is yes, then obviously you are not going to be able to get past that and see abortion as anything other than ending an innocent life. No voters aren't trying to control people's bodies, or keep women down or any of the other stuff cited on here. They simply view a foetus as a human being with all of the rights of other human beings - including an equal but not greater right to life than the mother.

DougFargo · 02/05/2018 15:22

Not at all, you can easily answer yes and still think that your own morals should not control the choices of others.

Its very simple, you can be absolutely against abortion personally and still be pro choice.

DougFargo · 02/05/2018 15:23

They simply view a foetus as a human being with all of the rights of other human beings - including an equal but not greater right to life than the mother

Actually they view it as greater than the life of the woman (not mother) as they are willing to let women die to preserve the amendment.

user1485342611 · 02/05/2018 15:28

But it's not about morals. It's about genuinely believing the foetus is a baby. If you do, you will view abortion as killing a baby. So it's not about trying to impose your moral beliefs, it's about trying to prevent legalising the ending of a baby's life.

Annasgirl · 02/05/2018 15:34

Well user1485...... you should be campaigning to repeal the right to travel. You should be standing at the Ryanair and Aer Lingus terminal to stop suspicious looking women. You should be making Ireland a place of love for all children. In fact you should be offering respite care to all of the parents going demented from loooking after their severely disabled children 24/7 without any state or charity help. If I was as concerned about these humans as you are I certainly wouldn’t be posting on an internet Repeal discussion. I would be out there saving lives.

DougFargo · 02/05/2018 15:38

But it's not about morals. It's about genuinely believing the foetus is a baby. If you do, you will view abortion as killing a baby. So it's not about trying to impose your moral beliefs, it's about trying to prevent legalising the ending of a baby's life

Its not though. Its your moral stance that its wrong, and you know that it already happens. We just export it. If you really and truly thought that it was killing babies, you wouldn't be ok with everyone leaving the country to do it, or buying pills online. And if you cared about preventing suffering, you wouldn't be for foetuses dying in agony and suffering rather than using termination for FFA.
It's an illogical position that makes no practical sense.

StripySocksAndDocs · 02/05/2018 15:45

therockinggazelle i just before coming to this thread de-frde-friended someone on Facebook.

I see her less and less but when I do her ultra-Catholic views were always proclaimed as her and her (controlled and brainwashed) children being better people. There were several post from her on how everything the yes side was a lie. Just now there was one about how no one had ever died because of the 8th.

Her smugness and her unwavering pious beliefs (which change, depends on what the pope says. (Or other organisations.)) made me just question why I'm bothering being friends with her.

It wasnt just that that made me come to that choice (there's be total hypocrisy and displays of narrow mindedness).

I've be effected my the 8th. Her crap spouting about it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I don't know anyone else voting no. There's a good few unsures. All of whom I think think it should be repealed but have that inbred hard-to-shake Catholic guilt.

Actually I do know another no voter. He's in his 80s and going senile. He thinks the vote is about making abortions compulsory and thinks it means there'll be no more children.

StripySocksAndDocs · 02/05/2018 15:52

user1485342611 it is totally about imposing your moral beliefs. Your moral belief is that abortion is wrong. You think that this means no one else should get an abortion.

Same way those think abortion is acceptable in x or y situations, but not in z situation. They are imposing their beliefs on others who are in z situation. Also those that vote no because of z, are preventing access to safe abortion for those in x and y.

LaurieMarlow · 02/05/2018 16:02

But it's not about morals. It's about genuinely believing the foetus is a baby. If you do, you will view abortion as killing a baby. So it's not about trying to impose your moral beliefs, it's about trying to prevent legalising the ending of a baby's life.

It really isn't that simple, as you well know.

However, taking your position at face value, you still have to grapple with the following questions ...

When the foetus' life is threatening the mother's life - which takes priority?

Whatever you believe the foetus to be, you can't control the mother's beliefs. If she has a strong enough desire to abort the foetus, you can stop her going backstreet or abroad. How can her health be safeguarded in these circumstances?

What are you doing to support the rights and outcomes of babies when actually born? Campaigning for better maternity rights, provision in hospitals, support for sick/disabled babies, better benefits for underprivileged families? The buck doesn't stop with the birth you know.

BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil · 02/05/2018 16:19

What Laurie said.

Support systems for new mothers are woeful (IME).

I would seriously recommend anyone and everyone should look at the Oireachtas Committe Report.

Then read Savita's case, then read PP v HSE. Come back and say the the rights of the mother are equal to that of the unborn. Both of these cases were delayed due to court actions. One resulted in a death of the mother and the other stripped of her dignity in death despite family wishes.

Its grim reading; however, its important.

I cant change which way people vote, this is why it is a referenda. I care that people vote without knowing the real facts. Not the trite that is displayed on posters on lampposts.

Trinity66 · 02/05/2018 16:29

But it's not about morals. It's about genuinely believing the foetus is a baby. If you do, you will view abortion as killing a baby. So it's not about trying to impose your moral beliefs, it's about trying to prevent legalising the ending of a baby's life.

The thing is though most of these people who think a foetus is a baby also think abortion should be allowed if the woman is raped so there is no way possible they actually think of a foetus as a real baby because if they did there would be no reason good enough to allow it

inniu · 02/05/2018 16:31

User...611

A foetus can't breathe, that is really part of the problem

user1485342611 · 02/05/2018 16:43

I didn't come on here to get into an argument, simply to explain the thinking of the 'No' voters and to try and demonstrate that it's not about trying to control women's bodies for the sake of it, or people being misogynist and the many other statements made on here.

It's a complex issue, provoking complex feelings.

Anyhow, I've tried to explain. I can't say more than I have.

Katiepoes · 02/05/2018 16:52

Misogyny is part of it though - hence the whole 'rape' and 'at risk'
nonsense. If abortion is allowed if the pregnancy is as a result of rape, or dangerous, well fine go ahead. If as result of a poor choice, failed contraception (afraid I'm proof of that one) or a plain old mistake then tough luck honey and Happy Mother's Day. In short - women are to deal with the results of sex in a way other people see fit. WTF else is that if not misogyny?

Also, despite my contempt for No voters' choice here it's a little arrogant to speak for them all don't you think? The ones I know are more than capable of explaining themselves, lord knows they were doing it loudly enough in Kildare last week.

'It's a complex issue, provoking complex feelings.' Which is exactly why each case is private and individual and cannot be handled by blanket legislation.

I have no clue whether you are a man or a woman but that entire post reeks of mansplaining.

NeedAGoodBook · 02/05/2018 17:07

I agree katiespoes. The hypocrasy of allowing it for rape is ridiculous as it is as you say, women must pay the price for sex. And even tho im 100% pro choice, if a cluster of cells is a person then the cluster of cells that results from rape has less right to life because the mother was raped. So it all implodes. All the pro life arguments. If they acknowledge that a woman cant be forced to go ahead with a pregnancy if she didnt consent to the sex that conceived it, then it is clear that women are punished for having sex.

LaurieMarlow · 02/05/2018 17:24

Unfortunately there probably are plenty of no voters who won't engage beyond 'I see the foetus as a living being, therefore I'm voting against repeal'.

And while user ironically points out it's a complex issue, this POV is incredibly simplistic, refusing to engage with the difficult moral issues the eighth throws up.

I'm not sure what's to be done about these voters except hope they're outnumbered by the more thoughtful.

PinkbicyclesinBerlin · 02/05/2018 17:35

Campaigning for better maternity rights, provision in hospitals

I was involved in campaigning for improving maternity rights in Ireland for s number of years. The 8th amendment looms large over wanted pregnancies as well as unwanted pregnancies. I have come across cases of forced maternity interventions based on the baby’s equal day in their maternity care based around the 8th. This in a country that developed the clock system where women’s labour must progress in accordance with those times contrary to international best practice. No good maternity system can exist with the 8th amendment in place.