Repeal the 8th

[SnowWhitesRestingBitchFace]

So DH and I are currently visiting my DF and DStepM in Southern Ireland (where I grew up).

Just answered the door to a couple who are looking for support in the referendum and wanted us to pledge that we would vote no.

No for context I am just 6 weeks away from giving birth to DC3 (so clearly very heavily pregnant) and they still had the audacity to argue with me when I said I didn't agree with them and I supported any woman's right to decide what happens to her body.

They started trying to show me pictures of 10 week old babies in the womb (not necessary obviously in the circumstances) and weren't pleased that I didn't agree with them given that I'm carrying a baby myself.

I'm sorry I don't really have an actual AIBU I just wanted to rant a bit and show support for the people who have to face this absolute shit every day until the referendum. We're going home to the UK on Thursday so I won't have it all thrown in my face anymore but I just think the guilt tripping is horrendous 😞

My own DH was always in favour of repeal by cannot bring himself to vote for it knowing that unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks will be the consequence

Then why was he in favour of repeal at all?

"My own DH was always in favour of repeal by cannot bring himself to vote for it knowing that unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks will be the consequence"
What the fuck is he in favour of, then?

He wanted it repealed for cases like FFA, medical treatment for pregnant women, miscarrying women, protection of doctors and the general position that it is not an issue that should be in the Constitution. He is not against very early abortions but believes 12 weeks is too far. His position may be incomprehensible to a lot on MN but I bet it is shared by a lot of the Irish electorate.

Depressingly, I'm sure it is.

Fuck 'em.

Oh right. So he's a deserving/undeserving woman person. A forced birther in other words.

I think his views are reflective of a lot of people’s in Ireland and it’s for that reason I don’t think it will pass. The bigger picture here should have been to get rid of the 8th. Linking that to unlimited abortion (however early the term limit) has played into the pro life sides hands. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t think people are going to vote for it.

If he truly wants repeal for those reasons then he should vote for those reasons. Otherwise the status quo remains.

We need repeal first and then the Government needs to come up with a form of legislation that will pass through the Dáil. It is by no means a forgone conclusion that this will be 'unlimited' abortion (a deliberately chosen term designed to imply women will be skipping off to get one in between their breakfast and hairdressers appointment), given the composition of the Dáil and the fact that there is likely to be a conscience vote rather than a whip led vote.

It is probably more likely that a still quite restrictive form of legislation would be needed to get through but this may also be influenced by the strength of the vote if repeal is passed.

The referendum is exactly that Collecting, to repeal and if he is for that he should vote accordingly. He could then lobby his TD in terms of what legislation he deems acceptable. The anti choice crowd seem to have done a good job (from their perspective) in making repeal seem like it is inextricably linked to 'abortions for all' when there is still a hill to climb in terms of the legislation.

Ah so your DH only agrees with certain abortions
If there's a valid reason in his eyes then up to 12 weeks is fine

My DH is not a stupid man. He understands what the referendum is for. He also understands the legislative process. He believes (and I think he’s right) that there is sufficient support in the Dail to pass the proposed legislation after a referendum. I think the government would find it very difficult to introduce something more restrictive if a majority voted for repeal knowing what the replacement would be.
I’m not here to defend his beliefs or vote anyway. I clearly don’t agree with him and have argued all your points with him. I offered his stance only as a illustration for why I think this won’t pass.

*Depressingly, I'm sure it is.

Fuck 'em.*

😁

He’s not a stupid man. Just a man who thinks he has the right to control what women do with their bodies.

Maybe not stupid Collecting but he clearly thinks abortions are ok for those he deems truly worthy but doesn't trust other women to know what is right for them and their particular circumstances.

Like I said I’m not here to justify his views nor do I need lecturing about them. They are not mine.
They are just an example of the commonly held opinions in Ireland and what this vote is up against. Railing against my DH isn’t going to change that. It won’t even change him as he’s not on here.

I see where your DH is coming from CollectingCoins. However, the legislation for abortion can only come into place if the 8th is repealed. The wording of the proposed amendment is 'provision may be made in law for the regulation of termination of a pregnancy'.

The legislation itself cant be made until the referendum passes, but the widely leaked health policy paper are from the recommendations made by the OCR. Whether that legislation will pass or not is anybody's guess After all, it only took 21 years to legislate for the X case.

However, no legislation at all can be passed until that stupid amendment has been repealed. I guess Im trying to say that even if your husband doesnt agree with the legislation that is proposed but wants to see women being able to access abortion, that by voting no he is stopping both.

I cannot, practically (although I agree with the proposed legislation) see it going through as a Bill without significant changes. If the referendum is passed, it doesnt mean that we are all best friends and singing from the same hymn sheet. There will be pressure on TDs to oppose and block all aspects of the legislation.

The referendum is just the opening gambit to what will not be a pretty sight.

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Slightly off topic, but I think its really nice to see people discussing this in a mature manner, with no mudslinging. Be lovely to see that on Leaders Questions!!

@CollectingCoins - unfortunately, I agree with you. I think there are an awful lot of people who would only agree with abortion for ffa, woman's life at risk and similar. I think the 12 week limit will result in some of them voting no.

Mind you, the ones I can't stomach are the ones who think abortion is acceptable in the case of rape but not if a woman has an unwanted pregnancy for other reasons. It's total misogyny. Basically, if there's any chance the woman enjoyed the sex or partook voluntarily, then she must be punished by forcing he to birth.

And I presume there won't be loads of people flying in to vote? No? Thought not. Equal marriage? Bring it on. Bodily autonomy for women? A step too far.

Why presume that? I know lots of people who are flying home to vote. You have to have lived in Ireland in the last 18 months to be on the electoral register though so not everyone who flew home for the marriage ref will still have the option.

@theymademejoin this is what is driving me nuts!! There is no legislation in place- there is a proposed 'health policy paper' that may or may not be the basis of future proposed legislation.

To me (ever the cynic) I feel as though, despite being from the OCR recommendations, that this 21 point policy plan is a little bit like kite-flying before a budget. Let everyone get incensed, howl about it not being fair and when it goes through people just say 'ah well that wasnt so bad actually'.

Youve been screwed, but not as royally as you thought you would be.

I think that the 'yes' campaign need to impress on people that irrespective of whether they agree with the proposed legislation nothing can happen until the eighth amendment is revoked.

If it isnt, 12 week limits, different circumstances wont mean jack shit.

If it is changed then legislation can and will be shaped by the TDs and the electorate. As Ive stated before, I personally find the health policy paper to be reasonable. Do I think it will go through without a change, or some very drastic changes? No.

The only thing that I ever want to re-iterate is that all of this is speculation without first changing the foundations on which it is built.

Thats twice today I've got up on my soap-box. Im getting dizzy.

Collecting is right and in said similar I my first post: this detail will put many off, many who feel great compassion for the women in the case of miscarriage/FFA/consent in pregnancy etc.. I understand his thinking and agree with a pp that if he wants these women to be able to make the right choice for them in tragic circumstances, then he is in favour of repeal and should vote yes. If he doesn't then those women will be in the same situation and those wanting a free and easy abortion can still get them, they just hop on a plane..

And I presume there won't be loads of people flying in to vote? No? Thought not. Equal marriage? Bring it on. Bodily autonomy for women? A step too far

That would be a pretty silly thing to assume.

You have to have lived in Ireland in the last 18 months to be on the electoral register though
I know several people who live abroad and who are still on the electoral roll. One hasn't lived in Ireland for over 30 years!

Anotherday agree with everything you said. The 40% of Irish people go to Mass is bull. I tried to devel into the numbers but couldn't be bothered as there are more pressing matters.(But it would appear that the the ESS survey was only carried out on 1500 people)

Slightly o/t but some here might enjoy it. I was on a train to Manchester just before the same-sex-marriage referendum sitting opposite tow Irish blokes who both intended to go home to vote for it.

One of them said "And the other, the one about younger Presidents?"

"That'll be a No, we'll do without a spalpeen in the President's job!"

Good luck on 26 May, all you repealers, and may you get a good law to follow.

I should say, 'free and easy' I the minds of those who think 12 weeks unrestricted would mean women chomping at the but to get in.

Playing devil's advocate on the rape issue, I imagine the thinking behind that is that that woman never wanted to have sex, whereas a woman who does knows there's a chance she might get pregnant and therefore if she and her partner don't take precautions then they're responsible for the resulting pregnancy. .

@mikado1 - obviously the only precaution to people of that mindset is not to have sex if you're not willing to accept the consequence of having a child if you get pregnant. No method of contraception is foolproof.

I had an Iona Institute type recently telling me that if a woman is raped, her body releases a hormone that prevents her becoming pregnant. The implication being that if she becomes pregnant, she obviously consented or enjoyed it.