To be so upset about the way things are in our family: DH, my year old and our baby.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I have two sons aged 4 and almost 8 months. The age gap is just under 3.5 years.

When the baby came along we had a few jealousy issues for about 6 weeks (but I expected that) but then my eldest started to dote on the baby and was constantly telling everyone how much he loved his big brother.

Fast forward to the last few weeks though and things have deteriorated so rapidly that I could cry about it. Suddenly he’s telling me he doesn’t love his brother anymore, he wished his brother wasn’t here and that his brother is ruining his life.

He’s started being very physically rough with the baby, purposefully pushing him hard, using his feet to roughly push the baby away, hitting him quite hard on his back, kicking him and the other day he even bit the baby leaving teeth marks in his hand. This behaviour has been going on every day for near enough 90% of the day. Our eldest has also started becoming quite defiant, ignoring everything we say to him and deliberately doing things he knows he shouldn’t.

I give him two warnings about his behaviour and if he does it for a third time, which he does about 90% of the time, he gets sent to his room. He’s not bothered though and just starts misbehaving again as soon as he comes out. I’m totally exasperated by it.

He’s normally well behaved for me (plays up more for his dad) and I’m quite calm with him but I admit I’ve lost my temper with him a lot over the last few weeks. My husband has got no patience for it at all and shouts at our eldest our lot, very loudly and harshly, sends him to his room frequently and I don’t like it.

When I ask our eldest why he’s done x, y or z, he just says “Because I did”. I then ask him the question again and he says “Because I’m a naughty boy.” I can’t bear hearing him say that as I know my DH calls him naughty quite frequently so I know my son now believes it. I also tell him that he’s not a naughty boy, he’s a good boy, but that he’s behaving in a way that we can’t allow.

I don’t know if it’s a change in his routine as it’s Easter Holidays over here so he’s been home every day as opposed to in childcare for 30 hours (his free funding) or the fact that as my DH is a teacher he’s been home every day for the last two weeks which he’s just not used to.

If anything is upsetting me the most it’s seeing the breakdown in the relationship between my DH and the eldest as they normally have such a wonderful bond. My eldest now seems to be pulling away from DH (I’m not surprised though) and wants me constantly and tells his dad that he’s on “mommy’s team” and he doesn’t want daddy to be in our team.

My DH was bought up in a very strict household and his dad was a patriarchal figure who cane down hard on any kind of poor behaviour which is where I think my DH gets it from. Throw in the fact my DH is a secondary school teacher and has to be strict and I think his attitude is a result of those factors.

Sometimes I worry DH appears to favour the baby over our eldest and I’ve told him to try and look at things through the eyes of a 4 year old but he doesn’t seem to grasp my point. I also worry though that the eldest think I favour the baby too because like I said, I’ve lost my temper at my eldest too when he’s been purposefully hurting the baby.

I fear I’m rambling now but I just needed to get it out because I’m feeling upset over it constantly.

I just needed to get it out and I’m desperate for some help or advice because it’s all just such a mess.

I feel for you, op. There are 2.5 yrs between my youngest 2, so not quite the same, but my DD was very angry to have a baby brother.
Your dh should know, as a teacher, that you shouldn't label a child as naughty, but talk about that particular behaviour. When a child is labelled as naughty or bad they are likely to live up to the label.
I would ask your dh to respect the fact that you are the primary carer and let you take the lead in discipline to ensure consistency. It's sad you think they're losing their bond maybe they also need some 121 time, without the baby, to take some pressure off.

No wonder you feel upset, but I am sure you can solve this issue so try not to worry.

Has DS1 recently started school? Sometimes this can lead so some jealous behaviour, as mum is at home with baby.

It sounds to me like DS1 is attention seeking. Even though it is negative attention, he is still getting attention. My advice would be to make a fuss of DS1 when he is doing something good, try to spend some time just with him.

In my experience you need to decide how you and DH are going to deal with the issue and support each other through it. It will improve with consistency I am sure. Never let children divide you as parents. I hope things improve soon.

@Bananamanfan You shouldn't get to set the tone for discipline just because you have ovaries.

OP and her dh are joint parents and need to take time to agree how to manage the situation rather than two different approaches simultaneously. What do you both want to have happen and how do you achieve it together? How long will you consistently try one approach before trying another or reviewing?

OP especially needs to avoid a situation in which dh ends up as the enforcer on the outside while she and the kids have an underlying 'silly dh' / 'it'll be OK once dh goes out' vibe. Kids pick up really easily on this and for him to be saying 'mummy's team' suggests that the OP also needs to consider the message she's sending to the eldest.

4.5 years between mine, it's hard at times. Sounds like your dh needs a parenting course, I went on one last year and it's completely changed my outlook, I used to be very shouty!!
Can you try to make time for your older child on his own? Ds1 had just started school when ds2 came along which helped but I would put him in the bouncy chair while doing his reading homework with him rather than sit snuggling the baby. I tell ds1 constantly how grown up he is and he gets certain privileges now as he's the older one (games or movie night when youngest is asleep every so often, when behaviour warrants it for example). I also go on admit how much ds2 loves ds1 and always will etc etc but perhaps the consequences need to be something where he doesn't feel pushed away... a list of chores or something? Loss of a favourite toy for a period of time, no tv for the rest of the day?
We read three+ books a night and when ds1 was 3ish the worst thing we could do to him was remove those, so he'd get a warning and then lose a book and we'd have a talk at bedtime when all was calm about why.

I'd give him a warning then straight to his room each time with no extra warnings. Take him calmly and talk about how he's feeling after. Same age gap here and DD1 had taken to toppling dd2 over sometimes onto hard floors. She doesn't get to do this 3 times before being given consequences.

And get a playpen for the 8mo.

To be blunt it doesn't sound like either of your approaches are working. You need to sit down and discuss a joint approach to DS to get him behaving.

But in answer to your question I think yabu, 4yos misbehaving is part of life. All parents have problems, he is clearly jealous of the baby so give him more positive attention, praise him, reward chart.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

My DH and DS1 have quite a lot of one-to-one time every day, they go to soft play, swimming, the library, trips into town etc and when possible I try and have 1-2-1 time with him too but the baby is breast fed so it’s not always easy to have prolonged time apart from him. I would say they spend at least two hours together each day just the both of them.

I think part of the problem too is that since the baby has been crawling it’s caused a lot of disruption as he’s constantly following the eldest around, trying to grab his books, his games etc etc so admittedly it has been harder to enjoy these things together like we normally would.

There’s no room in our living room for a play pen but we do have a device we can put the baby in for entertainment, not a jumperoo but a similar concept, but he tolerates about 5 minutes of being in there and then just starts crying because he wants to come out and be with me and my eldest.

My son isn’t in school, he was only 4 a few weeks ago. He’s been in childcare for 3 years now so it’s nothing new to him.

You’re all right though that me and DH need to sit down together and choose how to deal with it in a manner we are both happy with it, be consistent and be seen to be on the same page so the eldest can’t play us off against each other.

I'd stop sending him up his room and find a different way to discipline. If hes jealous and feeling left out, sending him to his room is going to make it worse.

My youngest is 4.5yo. I don't send to his room (I think he's a bit young, but mostly I just don't think it would work).
Instead he sits down in the kitchen with me until he calms down.

Your DH needs to stop calling him naughty though.

Why are you talking to me Becles? It's op's thread. Ovaries don't come into it, if ds is used to being with his mum and her boundaries, it's confusing to suddenly have to conform to different boundaries.

My older brother was the same with me apparently (i don't remember it!) It got so serious that my mum had help from an educational psycologist. She recomended that they didn't send him to his room as a punishment because that reinforces the idea that the new baby is pushing him out. The punishment she suggested was that my brother had to stand next to the parent for 2/5/whatever minutes. Away from his toys, away from his baby sister, away from the telly etc but not away from his parent.
Obvioulsy this was a few years ago and advice changes and stuff but when my mum was telling me (i was worried about the impact of a new baby on my daughter which is how it came up). Maybe discuss something like that - a joint decision on how to deal with the behaviour with your DH?

4 year old boys get a surge in testosterone. I remember having similar issues at this age. A two pronged attack needs to happens. Lots of positive reinforcement, special time with mum and dad. You also need to get creative with punishments. Sending him to his room seems to be isolating him further. Can you take a favourite object away etc. Whatever you choose you need to be consistent with it explaining what behaviour you expect before taking away the object.

I think you need to remove the warnings. Three warnings teaches him that it might be a little bit acceptable. If he can hit his brother three times, why not four? He is 4 years old, not 2. It's absolutely fine to tell him, from now on, you are NOT to hit or hurt your brother, I do not care why you are doing it, if you do it even once you go straight to your room, no treats for the rest of the day, no TV, etc. I would follow that up with, you are a good boy, your brother loves you and I know you love him. Now don't let me see it happen ever again.

Also when you are breastfeeding ask your child to sit with you and watch a programme, read a book or get him to help you.

Downstairs he has a little tub of sweeties and he’s allowed a few at the end of the day after his dinner if he’s been a good boy - needless to say he’s not had one for a while.

My own mom said that we should tell him that each time he hurts his brother one of his sweeties will be put in the bin and that he should see us doing it so he knows it’s not an idle threat and that he can see a consequence of his behaviour.

She said she did something similar with me and my sister when we were younger with good effect.

Boys don’t have a testosterone surge at age 4, that’s just a myth.

And it’s a very good point about removing the earnings as it reinforces he’s allowed to do it twice before getting in trouble.

Would we take the same approach with episodes where he chooses to ignore us and do something we’ve told him not to? For example, he will purposely throw a toy against the room, so we tell him not to, but he will just pick the toy up and do it again. It’s likes he’s pushing us, wanting us to get angry.

QueenofmyPrinces

Or, the next time you hurt your brother, ALL the sweeties go in the cupboard and they stay there for a month.

I think you're thinking too small. Your son is a clever little boy. He will see that the jar still has sweeties in it.

Yes, he is testing you. Mum said if I do this again, X will happen. How true is that? I will do it again to find out. It's normal behaviour, but for the warning to work, the punishment has to be something he really does not want to happen.

Maybe the other way round, he earns sweets going into the jar for later by showing you good behaviour (and set a low threshold eg aren't you walking nicely with mummy, wasn't that kind to smile at your brother)

"My own mom said that we should tell him that each time he hurts his brother one of his sweeties will be put in the bin and that he should see us doing it so he knows it’s not an idle threat and that he can see a consequence of his behaviour."

Do this the other way round. Every time he's being nice to his brother, pop a sweety in a jar for later. Ignore the bad behaviour, unless it's physical, then remove him from the situation with as little attention as possible.

Or, the next time you hurt your brother, ALL the sweeties go in the cupboard and they stay there for a month.

The problem I have then though is where do we go from there? He will most likely just go upstairs and hurt his brother again and then I don’t have another punishment (for want of a better word) to threaten him with....I don’t like that word either but can’t think of an alternative.

He’s clever enough to think that if all his sweets have gone anyway he may as well just play up because he’s got nothing to lose.

The same with telling him that we are are withdrawing treats or TV privileges all day, it doesn’t leave me anywhere to go when he next plays up

Sounds very difficult. As someone upthread said at 4 they have a testosterone surge which can make them very defiant.
As your ds said he doesn’t know why he’s doing it or he looked for a reason he’s heard which is that he’s naughty (pretty clever answer really). He’s a little bit at the mercy of his impulses.
Try to think about improving the physical environment so he can’t physically harm the baby. Use your body to be between them all the time so you can intervene or distract or divert quickly. If your dh is there too atm you can have one each and keep them separate. You just have to be hypervigilant at the moment and it won’t last for ever. No heavy/blunt/pointy toys.
Has he got friends you can have round to keep him entertained when it’s just you?

"It’s likes he’s pushing us, wanting us to get angry."

Nah, he wants attention.

Positive attention and reinforcement will do wonders here. Stop making him feel like a naughty little boy, and start pointing out all the great things he does do.

I can really recommend Dr. Laura Markham's stuff for both particular techniques and a more general approach to get things back on track, it's a more gentle approach but I've found it really effective (I have a 5 year old and 9 month old). She has a book called Calmer Parents, Happier Siblings which is great for sibling stuff and another general one and there's also lots of articles on her website ahaparenting.com

If you know he might go upstairs and hurt the baby he needs to be trailed all the time. He’s clearly not responsible enough yet. If he starts throwing toys, one of you take him to throw outside.