To be so upset about the way things are in our family: DH, my year old and our baby.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I have two sons aged 4 and almost 8 months. The age gap is just under 3.5 years.

When the baby came along we had a few jealousy issues for about 6 weeks (but I expected that) but then my eldest started to dote on the baby and was constantly telling everyone how much he loved his big brother.

Fast forward to the last few weeks though and things have deteriorated so rapidly that I could cry about it. Suddenly he’s telling me he doesn’t love his brother anymore, he wished his brother wasn’t here and that his brother is ruining his life.

He’s started being very physically rough with the baby, purposefully pushing him hard, using his feet to roughly push the baby away, hitting him quite hard on his back, kicking him and the other day he even bit the baby leaving teeth marks in his hand. This behaviour has been going on every day for near enough 90% of the day. Our eldest has also started becoming quite defiant, ignoring everything we say to him and deliberately doing things he knows he shouldn’t.

I give him two warnings about his behaviour and if he does it for a third time, which he does about 90% of the time, he gets sent to his room. He’s not bothered though and just starts misbehaving again as soon as he comes out. I’m totally exasperated by it.

He’s normally well behaved for me (plays up more for his dad) and I’m quite calm with him but I admit I’ve lost my temper with him a lot over the last few weeks. My husband has got no patience for it at all and shouts at our eldest our lot, very loudly and harshly, sends him to his room frequently and I don’t like it.

When I ask our eldest why he’s done x, y or z, he just says “Because I did”. I then ask him the question again and he says “Because I’m a naughty boy.” I can’t bear hearing him say that as I know my DH calls him naughty quite frequently so I know my son now believes it. I also tell him that he’s not a naughty boy, he’s a good boy, but that he’s behaving in a way that we can’t allow.

I don’t know if it’s a change in his routine as it’s Easter Holidays over here so he’s been home every day as opposed to in childcare for 30 hours (his free funding) or the fact that as my DH is a teacher he’s been home every day for the last two weeks which he’s just not used to.

If anything is upsetting me the most it’s seeing the breakdown in the relationship between my DH and the eldest as they normally have such a wonderful bond. My eldest now seems to be pulling away from DH (I’m not surprised though) and wants me constantly and tells his dad that he’s on “mommy’s team” and he doesn’t want daddy to be in our team.

My DH was bought up in a very strict household and his dad was a patriarchal figure who cane down hard on any kind of poor behaviour which is where I think my DH gets it from. Throw in the fact my DH is a secondary school teacher and has to be strict and I think his attitude is a result of those factors.

Sometimes I worry DH appears to favour the baby over our eldest and I’ve told him to try and look at things through the eyes of a 4 year old but he doesn’t seem to grasp my point. I also worry though that the eldest think I favour the baby too because like I said, I’ve lost my temper at my eldest too when he’s been purposefully hurting the baby.

I fear I’m rambling now but I just needed to get it out because I’m feeling upset over it constantly.

I just needed to get it out and I’m desperate for some help or advice because it’s all just such a mess.

That’s a good idea about earning sweets.....he’ll no doubt end up with a jar of 50 by the end of the day though because he will be overly nice on purpose because he knows he’ll be rewarded for it.

I started doing a Good Boy List with him the other day where every time he dies something good we write it down and then at bedtime we look back over it and talk about all the lovely things he’s done that day and praise him for it. I make a point of really focusing on writing down good things he does for his brother.

Maybe I could incorporate his sweetie rewards into that - for every 3 things he gets on his Good Boy List he earns himself a sweet.

QueenofmyPrinces

I don't agree, OP. Placing him in his room for a proper period of time EVERY time he does it will work. Giving him the impression that hitting his brother is something he is allowed to decide to do, by offering him sweets for not doing it ("I don't want a sweet that much right now - I'll bite DS2 instead) won't work. He needs to understand that it is non-negotiable. He is absolutely not allowed to do it. One sweet at a time, filling the jar back up for good behaviour and removing sweets for bad behaviour, just teaches him he will get sweets if he moderates hitting his brother. He needs the "no more sweets until it stops" lesson now.

But anyway, good luck.

When my dd lashed out at having a baby brother, I ignored the bad, praised the good, and gave loads of cuddles. She wasn't as physical as your son though, so I agree the hitting and hurting of the baby needs to be punished but I think it'd be wise to stop sending him upstairs in isolation.

If your baby is 8 months, he doesn't need frequent feeding. I suggest you have some 1:1 time with your oldest and leave your baby with your husband.

He needs a place where he can play without having a baby trying to demolish whatever he's doing. And you need to agree on a strategy that both you and your DH follow to the letter. Kids take any sign of deviation from that as weakness to manipulate... I have 3 DDs and we had to be so consistent, it was exhausting at times.
I wouldn't be panicking yet about his behaviour - baby is still young, and your DS is just frustrated but he needs to find a better way of dealing with it.

The testosterone surge is a myth.

If the deterioration coincides with the holidays, it might be that it’s the first time he’s seeing with more mature eyes the extent of your “betrayal” - the sheer amount of time you have to spend close to the baby. When they are only around evenings and weekends it’s much easier to juggle things if you have a DP as you do so they don’t twig.

His physical escalation is a risk so I do understand you losing your cool, the book recommendation is excellent and you could ask your GP or local children’s centre for a referral to help.

My brother was 4 years older than me and resented me enormously despite our mother's best efforts. She did manage to stop him attempting serious physical attacks (she once saw him creeping up behind my carrycot with a heavy object) but unfortunately he did continue to bully me quite badly until I reached my teens. I think for most though, they do manage to work though it and although siblings bicker and scrap at times they get over this fierce initial resentment.

Myth or no, he’s having a spell of challenging behaviour which is the important thing here.

If your baby is 8 months, he doesn't need frequent feeding. I suggest you have some 1:1 time with your oldest and leave your baby with your husband.

I do this and leave the baby with my husband for about 2.5-3 hours at a time, I just meant I can’t take my eldest out for a while afternoon or a whole day etc. It’s realky hard when my eldest asks if we can do x, y or z which would take me away from home for a long time and I have to say we can’t because I need to get home for the baby. I have tried to find other excuses to give him so it doesn’t look like the baby takes preference but he isn’t stupid and he knows the real reason.

His bedroom is actually opposite the living room so when he is sent there he’s not completely isolated as he can still see us and hear us.

If the deterioration coincides with the holidays, it might be that it’s the first time he’s seeing with more mature eyes the extent of your “betrayal” - the sheer amount of time you have to spend close to the baby. When they are only around evenings and weekends it’s much easier to juggle things if you have a DP as you do so they don’t twig.

That’s a very good point!

Just a thought but I remember being told don't tell you kids things like "don't drop it" because it puts the thought of dropping whatever it is in their head and it makes them more likely to drop it - it's better to say "keep a tight hold of that " instead.

It occurred to me that whenever I said "if you do that again. . . [consequence]" they did it again very soon. I realised that something similar was going on and what they seemed to be hearing was just "do that again."

So I changed the approach to telling them what I wanted to happen, not what I didn't want to happen, and it worked much better.

So rather than saying: "if you hurt DS2 one more time you're up to your room, " instead saying: "now i'd like to see you two playing nicely with no one getting hurt and you both happy."

In my experience a more positive approach definitely does work. 4yo is still very little, and you need to help him learn how to behave. He's jealous and feeling pushed out, and taking away his treat and excluding him by putting him in his room will just make him feel worse. It might work in terms of modifying his behavior, but it's a horrible way to do it (in my opinion)

It's really easy to get into downward spirals with shouting and punishments. Sometimes I think it can help to have a day where you don't pushing at all, and then try to get on a more positive note. It works almost instantly.
The sweets are actually quite irrelevant, it's the switch to positive reinforcement, and changing the way you deal with his behaviour and seeibg it as jealousy rather than naughtiness, that will make the difference.

I realise this sounds like a load of waffle, and I come across as soft, actually I'm not. I'm very strict. I just deal with it differently at this age.

As they get older it changes, but with a 4yo, this is a very effective way of changing behaviour.

4 year old boys get a surge in testosterone.
This is a myth.
I'd say this was 100% down to the baby being mobile!
If you can't fit a playpen (not even wIth moving furniture around?) then maybe a room divider.
Praise any little piece of calm behaviour (at this stage we were praising DS walking past DD without hitting her); have a look at Calmer Happier Easier Parenting.
Contrary to what a PP says giving attention (not sweets) for good behaviour works.

Buy DH some parenting books. Look on amazon for ratings

HI OP. Someone has misinter positive reinforcement as being giving your son a sweet for not hitting the baby. You also said he hasn’t earned any sweets as he hasn’t been good/earned thé recently. He is still so littlé you sort of need to facilitate situations where he is good and make a fuss of how helpful/good he is being. Eg. Could you help me by fetching baby’s teddy, by helping daddy set the table.. Also, I’m sure there are moments when he is calmer/better with his little bro, shower with him in praise and say what a good big bro he is,etc. Pushing him away as a punishment will make him scared of losing his place in the family and build further resentment to the baby. Good luck

Lots of older kids go nuts when younger siblings start moving. They become more of a threat.

Haven't RTFT but sending him to his room alone and questioning him why he did it repeatedly made me cringe, sorry.

He's only 4, he needs love, undrstanding, reassurance, modelling good behaviour, respect and loving boundaries. Not punishment.

Sending him off by himself is only going to reinforce that baby is replacing / usurping him.

Lots of people say imagine if your husband brought home a new wife to live with you that he cuddled all day in front of you. Thats basically how your older son feels. I wouldn't be over it in 8 months either, especially if I saw the new wife doing cool new tricks that really impressed everyone. And if I was punished for having bad feelings towards her - I'd be fucking livid.

I've been where you are and it is SO hard - honestly you were lucky to only have 6 weeks at the start IMO - but a year or so down the line things are better and my DC can now play nicely at least some of the time.

OP watch him very closely (without him realising he is being watched) and see what is triggering the behaviour. Once you see what the triggers are, you can go some way to minimising the behaviour.

Is the baby getting a lot of attention now that he is mobile? Have you tried a playpen to keep them separated so that the baby isn’t trashing his brothers things? Is older DC bored?

Sorry typo misinterpreted. So positive reinforcement is praising lots of small positive behaviours, or even neutral ones. I would maybe recommend a star chart instead of sweets, when he earns twenty stars he gets to choose a treat. As you said he could be rolling in sweets otherwise when he gets hang of it! Doesn’t matter if it looks like he is just being good to earn sweets or stars at first, he will also realise how much happier his mum and dad are with him and that will make him happy and encourage him to keep it up :)

Where has the 'team' thing come from?

Lots of positive attention and praise for good behaviour.
Swift consequences for hitting/dangerous behaviour.
Ignore minor misbehaviour where you can.
Stop asking him why he did so and so. He doesn't know or can't articulate why, whereas you have a far better idea (jealous/bored/wants attention/ cross the baby is messing up his stuff).

Start pointing out what a big deal he is to his little brother - how he watches him, how impressed little bro is with his tower/drawing/abilities on a scooter. Nothing like a little hero worship.

It's a phase. It will pass (change into something else you need to deal with - maybe the toddler hitting his big brother for attention- and on you'll go).

I think part of the problem too is that since the baby has been crawling it’s caused a lot of disruption as he’s constantly following the eldest around, trying to grab his books, his games etc etc so admittedly it has been harder to enjoy these things together like we normally would.

Baby being on the move, grabbing his toys and your eldest changing to see him more as 'competition' and feeling he'll have to share with him rather than the little baby to look after could be a big part of the reason.

Instead of sending your eldest out of the room when he acts up try keeping him with you but separate them, sit him down at a table for quiet time in a different part of the room, tell him to think about his behaviour while he does an activity like drawing, a puzzle.

Then encourage him to play with the baby with you together, have a chat with your eldest explaining you know it's annoying when his little brother grabs his toys to chew on but he's too little to know better and just wants to join in and play. But that it's ok to want some time to play with his 'big boys' toys himself too and that if there are times he wants to play by himself to tell you, he could choose time in his room with his games but not as a punishment.

One thing that sticks out from your initial post is the conflicting information given to your eldest son. His father is telling him he is a naughty boy but you are telling him he is not and that he is a good boy. I think you need to both work on a more consistent approach with him.

That’s a good idea about earning sweets.....he’ll no doubt end up with a jar of 50 by the end of the day though because he will be overly nice on purpose because he knows he’ll be rewarded for it.

That's exactly what you want to happen! Use Smarties or something small, so he doesn't have too much.

I started doing a Good Boy List with him the other day where every time he dies something good we write it down and then at bedtime we look back over it and talk about all the lovely things he’s done that day and praise him for it. I make a point of really focusing on writing down good things he does for his brother.

That sounds really nice.

Positive reinforcement is the way to go.

When he does something wrong correct him calmly, and then don't give him attention for it (this is what the naughty step concept does--it removes the child from your attention as a consequence). When he does something good, lots of praise, a cuddle, tell his dad what he's done... it all adds up.

But please don't start throwing his sweeties away, or shouting at him, as it all just reinforces the negative behaviours.

‘If your baby is 8 months, he doesn't need frequent feeding. I suggest you have some 1:1 time with your oldest and leave your baby with your husband.

I do this and leave the baby with my husband for about 2.5-3 hours at a time, I just meant I can’t take my eldest out for a while afternoon or a whole day etc. It’s realky hard when my eldest asks if we can do x, y or z which would take me away from home for a long time and I have to say we can’t because I need to get home for the baby. I have tried to find other excuses to give him so it doesn’t look like the baby takes preference but he isn’t stupid and he knows the real reason.’

Why do you have to get back to the baby after a couple of hours? Have you tried giving the baby formula?

I'd never reward with food / sweets. Setting the kids up for a lifetime as food = reward.

There’s much better advice here than I could give, so just wanted to say that must be really hard and lots of sympathy. I know from friends - and tales of my 2 year old self when DB arrived - that it’s very common. But that doesn’t make it easier or less sad for you.

I do think your DP needs to work out how he is going to handle it with you though. At the moment your DS is getting mixed messages from the pair of you and a very firm hand from his dad, which he may well associate with the baby.

As the baby gets more interesting and they can play together I am sure they’ll be good friends - you just need a strategy that will help you get to that point 🤞🏻