How can it be possible that we would be so skint!

[BasinHaircut]

Just doing some sums to basically work out whether we can ‘afford’ to have another child. We can, but I’ve just worked out that even though DH and I bring home £4500 per month net, PLUS childcare vouchers of £385 per month, once paying another set of childcare fees 4 days per week, after everything was paid out each month we would have £750 left over for food, petrol and other spends. There would be 4 of us to feed so let’s say £300 a month, plus £100 petrol. £350 for all of us for anything else.

How is it possible that we would have so little? I know it would be short term (until free 15 hours kick in and then better again once they started school) but what the fuck???

Going through our expenses it’s only things such as amazon prime and Apple Music that we could feasibly claw back each month. Nothing that would make a dent.

We are lucky I suppose that we own our house, have renovated it already so not expecting any big expenses in the medium term. But still, even Xmas would be a real struggle!

This is not a stealth boast I promise, I genuinely cannot understand how we can have so much coming in and still not even have enormous go to justify a takeaway if we have another child.

JFC. We've had to eat ham sandwiches for every meal this week as DH doesn't get paid til Friday and it's all we could afford.

We are short money every week. To have those wages and that amount left over is like an impossible dream.

I don’t think it’s a fairly normal activity to go to the circus/cinema/cafe/soft play whenever you fancy it.

It’s normal for it to be a treat and saved up for. Kids are as expensive as you make them, if your kids expect cinema every week or food/drink at aoftplay than it will be more expensive but if they’re used to free museums, free shows, nature walks, park then obviously it will be a lot cheaper

Weather is seriously crappy in this country. That's fine in summer but in winter, you can't do that all the time.

But what do you think people do when that fun money literally doesn't exist? You suck it up and find things to do at home.

Unfortunately when you live in an expensive area and have high childcare costs, the reality is you won't have a lot left over for the fun stuff. Lots of families don't go to the circus or cinema regularly - that kind of thing was an annual/six monthly treat for me growing up the nineties and we certainly weren't struggling financially. It certainly wasn't something my parents would have considered doing regularly.

The same with going to cafes and soft play. Of course we went, but it wasn't expected and when the weather was bad we stayed home and I found other things to do. That was the norm for me and all my friends, I would never have expected soft play or the cinema just because it was raining!

Circus can be expensive. We went to the early showing last week where all seats were £7. So went early in the day - or it would have cost £36 but we paid £14

It’s normal for it to be a treat and saved up for. Kids are as expensive as you make them, if your kids expect cinema every week or food/drink at aoftplay than it will be more expensive but if they’re used to free museums, free shows, nature walks, park then obviously it will be a lot cheaper

Well good luck with that once they get older.

As for free museums, we live in London so have access to plenty. However it costs me about a tenner in train/tube travel. I might let kids choose something in gift shop for a couple of pounds. Kids might want a drink or snack. It can end up costing £20+. Again, these things are choices but it just seems so depressing that buying your DC a carton of juice and a piece of cake or sticker book from the gift shop is seen as a frivolous luxury in 21st century UK.

But it sounds like the OP is also living in an expensive area (a choice - many people simply can't afford this, or need to make significant sacrifices to do so) or are doing childcare the expensive way again, a choice that many people simply don't have the means to do.

People on lower salaries have to work opposite shifts or call in favours from relatives in order to make it work.

You can't expect to spend most of your money on very expensive ways of living that most people have no access to and expect to have money left over to do as many expensive activities as you like.

Cafes and cinema trips are awful value for money. Truely truely overpriced for what you get.

Which is why most people don't do them very often or look for cheaper ways to do similar things, like picnics in the park (put a coat on) or 2 for 1 cinema deals or Netflix with snacks from the supermarket.

why don't you think of it another way. After your essentials - housing/utilities/transport , you have X disposable income.

By having a child you are choosing to spend that some of that disposable income on having costs associated with having a child.

You don't have more left because you are spending it. I'm not having a go at you in particluar it just seems to me when I read these threads that people forget that they chose to have a child, buy a particular house or whatever and then seem surprised at how ' little ' they have left over.

I'm a single parent, I have an income of £40k, my mortgage is over £1000 a month. I afford Christmas and holidays by putting money aside each month. I can afford the cinema regularly and I go out for breakfast with my friends once a week. I pay for his scout trips by sending in £10 a week to the camp bank. My son is a sports fiend so I take him to matches and athletics meetings. Its all about what you choose to prioritise and to be honest a bit of budgeting and planning ahead.

I totally agree with formerbabe’s points. I’m not sure what the debate is here - of course you make do with what you have to and at times that can be miserable.

basin I do agree about setting aside at least £100 pm for unexpected expenses, we had an enormous vet bill recently it as we’d made mortgage overpayments we could withdraw it was ok.

The first 3 years of each of our children’s lives were the hardest parts of our lives so far, no help, no time, no sleep, constant worry about work and whether we were doing a good enough job with our children, but it was all worth it. You’ll be ok - save as much as you can beforehand whilst pg etc and go for it.

Not everyone can work opposite shifts or call in favours from relatives for childcare.

And I live where I work (sort of, still an hour away) if I moved further away it would cost me an extra £400 to get to work each month minimum. I couldn’t move closer as we couldn’t afford housing. My mortgage (£900 a month) is about half what I’d be paying if I was renting my own house.

I kind of know what you mean OP. We have a good bit less than you coming in but after all bills and food etc we probably have around £500 which obviously isn’t bad but at this stage in my life and with my kids a lot bigger I had kind of hoped I might feel a bit flush by now given especially on paper I have a decent career. Kids get more expensive as they get older in a couple of years despite lack of childcare costs it’s going to be equivalent to having to feed and clothe 2 extra adults on 2 salaries once my 2 are teenagers (boys so big and eat a lot!)

@formerbabe when my son is older he won’t suddenly demand expensive stuff, that’s really odd.
If you had £80 a week spare you could do those things, therefore op is not skint.
However it’s not difficult to take a bottle of juice and pack up to save spending money on that

If we had another kid, we'd be in the negative so count yourself lucky.

For that reason, not planning another until DS is in school.

greenyoga £80 a week isn’t really ‘spare’ though is it when you have to buy shoes and new washing machines out of it. And save some of it to boot.

@formerbabe when my son is older he won’t suddenly demand expensive stuff, that’s really odd

It's really not odd but that's not what I mean anyway. Kids want to do more expensive activities when they get older. A trip to the playground or a walk in the woods just isn't going to be as appealing to an 11 year old as it is to a 4 year old.

I understand where you're coming from, and I also agree that it's all relative. When I was younger, as a single student in a houseshare I earned £300 a month and my room rent was £230, travel £40, so I had £30 a month for food, phone bill, socialising, clothes and everything else. I was genuinely skint and it wasn't much fun. £350 a month would have seemed like utter luxury. I was super strict with money and lost a lot of sleep worrying about it.

Nowadays our net income is the same as yours less the childcare vouchers. We had two in ft childcare at one point andnjt was difficult. We now have one in ft childcare one in wraparound and have a decent amount disposable. We don't have to worry any more, or think about buying a coffee or treat while out or a magazine or budget the food shop. I can see that £350 is a lot of money, but I can also see that it might be hard to go back to budgeting to ensure that £350 covered all eventualities. Last month we had an £800 repair bill for the car, £150 home repair and a surprise £240 vet bill all at once - those nasty surprises can really spiral.

Would you perhaps consider spacing your children more, so that you only have one in full time childcare? That's the compromise we made in the end.

No but you split it. So say £50 for activities during the week or to save for a treat. £30 into the pot for if washer breaks or when kids need new shoes, Christmas, birthdays etc
It’s not a vast amount but it’s not skint either

I don't see why people are hating, if you're used to having a certain standard of living whatever that may be , then it's normal to worry about having less disposable income even if that is still considered a decent amount by someone else. Having another baby , yes for a while you may feel like you have much less money left over for things you previously enjoyed like takeout and cinema trips, but only you can weigh up the options if it's worth it.

And family activities can be expensive (especially in/around London), Christmas can be expensive and even holidays especially if they're in school holiday time when all the prices are double! Some people can easily sacrifice these things whilst others can't and would rather not have another child to maintain their lifestyle, to be able to buy new clothes and holiday etc. Also depends if you have savings to fall back on.

But I never yet heard of anyone regretting their baby even if it did make things temporarily difficult!

We had to wait till one was in school can you not do that? I only pay the odd bit of childcare for eldest like odd after school club session occasional half term. Still nowhere near as bad as two kids in nursery

If your DH is on higher rate tax, but not additional rate, then you should look at a tax free childcare account as an option rather than childcare vouchers. I believe it is a better deal so long as a) both parents are employed, b) neither is an additional rate tax payer, and c) total childcare costs are more than about £9,300/year. Google for a calculator to find more info.

I might let kids choose something in gift shop for a couple of pounds. Kids might want a drink or snack. It can end up costing £20+

Formerbabe expenses like this are nothing to do with kids 'getting older' but more to do with what you as a parent allow.

My dc are very fortunate - but we never buy snacks from the cinema or similar expensive place. And we don't go in the gift shop in the vast majority of places. Not even because we can't afford it, just because I can't abide waste and spending £14 on two cokes and popcorn, that could be bought for £3 in our local shop, really naffs me off.

My older dc walk past gift shops and snack stands without so much as asking...and the eldest is 10 so it's not a case of being little and distractable.

And as for the op now stating someone on £80k 'can't afford' the cinema...ffs, get a grip.

As you apparently don't even have a second child yet, you must currently have in excess of £1k disposable a month?

You have a very good income, ample opportunity to save substantially so that maternity leave barely dents you and are all round in a very fortunate position.

To fail to recognise this and still be banging on about being 'confused' and it being 'madness' at not being able to afford a cinema trip is fucking obscene when you're already (presumably) read the mass of responses from people who are genuinely fairly hard up.

barbara so do you not think it’s crazy that a household with an income of £80k+ cannot afford to go to the cinema?

It would be were it true but it is not. You have a net income of nearly 5k a month and your mortgage is only 900? What the fuck are you doing with all of your money that you "can't afford" twenty quid for the cinema?

I haven't read all of this but I think it's not a lot to live on if the OP is living a London centric life. However the money is an estimate based on having another child which is an option.

OP can you not put aside half of your disposable income for 12 - 18 months so there is a cushion when the next child arrives. That seems the obvious answer rather than the snarking.

OP I agree with you. I'm currently pregnant with DC2 and facing a double childcare bill just outside of London. It's a killer. The only option is to get into the mindset that it is only short term - the costs should reduce after a few years and your monthly spending pot should increase.

I know plenty don't agree and its all relative but I don't think £350 after food is enough to live comfortably on as a family, yes its very possible but you'll have to watch your spending very closely. You are right that with two decent incomes £350 per month disposable would feel very low.

I haven't read the full thread so it may have been mentioned but Tax Free Childcare may work our slightly better than vouchers - you can get up to £2000 per child.

secret as I said before the comment about the cinema was in response to a particular post which said that (I’m paraphrasing now) that you shouldn’t even be spending money on the cinema in those circumstances as you can’t afford it. I was merely pointing out how nonsensical it sounded that a household with an £80k+ was being told it couldn’t afford the cinema, because in the context of what was being discussed that’s what was being said. I wasn’t saying that I personally couldn’t afford the cinema.

How can YOU fail to realise that and STILL be banging on about it?