How can it be possible that we would be so skint!

[BasinHaircut]

Just doing some sums to basically work out whether we can ‘afford’ to have another child. We can, but I’ve just worked out that even though DH and I bring home £4500 per month net, PLUS childcare vouchers of £385 per month, once paying another set of childcare fees 4 days per week, after everything was paid out each month we would have £750 left over for food, petrol and other spends. There would be 4 of us to feed so let’s say £300 a month, plus £100 petrol. £350 for all of us for anything else.

How is it possible that we would have so little? I know it would be short term (until free 15 hours kick in and then better again once they started school) but what the fuck???

Going through our expenses it’s only things such as amazon prime and Apple Music that we could feasibly claw back each month. Nothing that would make a dent.

We are lucky I suppose that we own our house, have renovated it already so not expecting any big expenses in the medium term. But still, even Xmas would be a real struggle!

This is not a stealth boast I promise, I genuinely cannot understand how we can have so much coming in and still not even have enormous go to justify a takeaway if we have another child.

I AM ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT MY OWN FINANCIAL POSITION

It's AIBU. People are allowed to tell you YABU.

If you don't want to hear it, maybe post in Chat.

OP you can afford another child. It's just whether you're willing to adjust your lifestyle and spending style.

Only you can decide whether maintaining your current spending or having another child is your strongest priority. It's not like you're expecting the world to pay for your child, and actually from a world sustainability point of view having a small family is better. So do what you want.

I don't think 350 is a massive amount a month spare, although it's doable, but I wouldn't voice that in real life because there are so many people who are really struggling, and it's incredibly insensitive to them. You could have phrased your original post much better.

It might not seem a huge amount OP but I found when mine were little that we didn't spend in the same way that we did before kids. Very few meals out and holidays were cheapie UK ones because it was a lot of hassle with them being big tiny. Embrace it, it's not forever. Things change as they grow.

I feel your pain - we have a similar income and 2 kids. Days out do not exist, Zoo, softplay etc only for birthdays (i.e. once a year). no holidays.
outer london means high mortgage (1500 for a tiny 2 bed), high childcare costs (averaged £2000, even with oldest in school- after school and holiday care is expensive around London), high travel costs (£600 for 2 people, season tickets). that makes 500 left for food, bills etc. so we can't afford a car. or meals out. or days out.
It is temporary though (one of us giving up work would mean more money now, but certain poverty in old age - in both of our jobs once you are out, you are out!). we don't want to saddle out children with that, so we are frugal now. _and once the mortgage is paid off, we'll be better off.

First its pretty obvious that with a childcare bill of 450per month you'll be better off with tax free childcare versus vouchers.. Although potentially there is the maternity leave situation to consider...

as for whether you should have another child/can afford it...well all this maths is good but not that useful as things can change drastically. you can lose your job, have a disabled child, fall ill or indeed have promotions etc

we are on a bit over 80k gross per month (soon 93k due to promotions) with 3 kids, full time work and full time nursery and we feel very comfortable personally and i know we are lucky.
Also fwiw we spend approx 300 per month on food and that's doing online shopping with Ocado + greengrocer. If need to include ALL household stuff it may come to 350.

Personally I didn't do those detailed calculations when we decided to have more children. Having a decent income and style of living was enough (knowing nothing is guaranteed anyway) along with our desire to have more children and therefore the knowledge that we would adjust accordingly.

I don't think £350 a month is much, tbh. Because you have to fund all of your "one offs" from that.

Like:

Birthdays
Christmas
Car repairs
Anniversaries
Valentines
Easter
Play dates
School trips
School books/materials
Kitchen white goods break downs
Boiler servicing/repairs
Home repairs (leaks etc)
Hobbies
Extra curricular activities for kids, like swimming
Dentist
Hair cuts
Shoes
Clothes

And so much more besides.

However....being stretched is just a reality when you have 2 kids needing childcare. Almost everyone has that 5 year stint where things are tight. When I went back to work, after I deducted child care, I was working for only £140 per month.Which is sickening, however, it meant that my job was kept open.

Long term, you'll have no child care at all, and you will have £1935 left per month for treats and "one offs", which is exceptionally good. This is what you need to focus on....the end game, as it were.

Fwiw, I find that "one offs" add up to a lot! In the last 7 years or so, I've had to find money for god children's 18th's, godchildren's 21st's, my own children's 18th's and one of their 21st's (the other will be 21 soon), parents 60th's, parents 70th's, siblings 40th's, In-laws 40th's, Partners and my 40'ths, births of neices and nephews, Christenings, a few weddings, lots of car repairs, massive (almost £3k) vets bill for an uninsured pet....the list goes on and on.

I guess you could just not buy a sibling/child/neice/nephew anything for their "big" birthdays, but how shit would that be, when everyone pooled together when it was one of your big birthdays?

On paper me and DH should have a good sum of money left over after all bills are paid, but there is always something needing paid, and we never save what we should be saving on paper!!

It's HOW you're talking about it.

"Skint"
How is it possible that we would have so little
.But still, even Xmas would be a real struggle
there isn’t really anything else to claw back - I'd LOVE to see your HONEST SOA cos I bet I could find savings
"and new car needed." In London really? Tubes every few mins, tons of buses too
"amazon prime (lifesaving)" lifesaving - really?
"that could arguably be cut back but seriously, this is what we have to be paying out to just exist here." Again "exist"?
"lady actually I’m brilliant with money" how do you think Londoners on MUCH less manage then? They must be walking on water!
"I’m not comparing myself to other people, I know they manage on a lot less but that doesn’t mean I have to be satisfied with what I consider a low amount left over each month" how about grateful?

"but are also in (outer) London so living costs are high." This is trotted out so much by certain London mners - irks because
A - other uk cities have high living costs too
B - there are very poor people in London too

"It’s working out about £700 a month cheaper than all day care did!" So where's that £700 gone?

"Wow. I'm lucky if I have £7.50." Same here

I notice the op hasn't answered questions on exactly where the money's going, what car they drive (or even how old - brand new?), mortgage = half rent is pretty much true everywhere in uk sometimes mortgages are 1/3 of rent prices, how big is your home? Flat/house/terraced/detached/own garden? Whats the insurance you mentioned a few times for? What kind of phone do you have? What kind of Tv? Sky tv? How much is your bb? Do you smoke, drink? Have nails done professionally? Any tattoos?

It’s interesting that you can find all that but not the posts where I have laid out where the money is going.

Or would be going rather.

There are no specifics I have looked. And of course you aren't required to state specifics but I have seen in your posts what I stated and your repeated references to items that most would consider luxuries as necessities.

What am I saying is a necessity that could be considered a luxury apart from DS’s swimming lessons?

And yes we do need the car.

The op has stated her mortgage is £900 her travel and childcare cost 2.1k per month

I agree that £350 left over after all bills and food is not a lot. Birthdays, attending kids' parties, Christmas, school trips, haircuts, shoes, car repairs etc. It's not a lot.

I think your expectations of what you should be able to get for your money are off though. Nearly £5000 in your hand a month is lots, unless you live in London, want to own a house and want children and want someone else to look after them every day and want a great lifestyle.

London is one of the most expensive places in the world. We moved out 15 years ago when our household income was £5000 a month. We had no children at the time but I wanted them and realised having them there would be very expensive.

I think instead of focusing on what you cannot afford you need to think about what you ARE getting for your money or would be as you currently have only one child and a lot more money left over each month. You would have your own recently renovated house in London, 2 children and somebody looking after those children every day. You both would be travelling by train twice a day. You would have a car. You would be eating well and your children would have swimming lessons. You could afford to go out sometimes too. So actually you would be getting loads for your £5000 a month.
Our income even 15 years later has not reached £5000 again but we have more left over at the end of the month than we would have in London because our house is not worth much (yours probably is and every time you pay your mortgage you are building equity) and we don't see not spending money as existing and not living. It is possible to have plenty of fun on a day out whilst barely spending any money.

This is very long but what I am trying to say is you might not have a lot left over for a couple of years but you are spending your money on property in London, a good lifestyle and 2 children.

it Is even expensive when they leave nursery. If your ds costs £450 being at school then that will double with your second.

Unfortunately I did not even realise this myself when factoring my own finances and I think the whole thing is grossly unfair. In some parts of the country they offer breakfast and after school clubs for free or for a very small fee.

Having kids is super expensive imo.

So op are you going to have number 2 😂

net income 5k a month: mortgage of 900.

OP has plenty of money to play with and anyone claiming otherwise is clueless.

In some parts of the country they offer breakfast and after school clubs for free or for a very small fee.

Really? Where?

We have 2 pre school children in nursery and things have been relatively tight. Some savings we have made:
Phone contracts - £7.50 each rather than £30 each

Clothes - good quality second hand from eBay then sell any on after

Outings - always take drinks and snacks rather than buying

Cancelling Netflix etc

Using tax free childcare scheme saved us a lot more than vouchers

£2.1k couldn’t have been me quite but I’m sure I have discussed the figures somewhere.

Anyway, for shits and giggles, her is the breakdown. Remember the second child is not real yet, and these figures are rounded up or down to nearest £5

Childcare mythical - 1100
Childcare actual - 450
Mortgage - 900
Travel to work - 450
Loan - 300
Council tax - 200
Water - 50
Gas and electric - 100
Internet - 30
Car insurance - 40
Home insurance - 30
Life insurance - 15
Food - 300
Petrol- 100
Prime- 10
Apple Music - 15
Swimming lessons- 20

I’ve already said that the last 3 are what could be clawed back so I already know that.

Plus I have realised thanks to some helpful posters that I might be able to make a saving on the childcare figure so I also already know that.

I switch insurers and energy suppliers when I can do these are as low as I can get them.

I’m looking forward to graphista saving me loads more though

It's the extra childcare costs that are crippling you. The cost of nursery fees in this country are astronomical. Taking these out, you'd be able to live pretty comfortably. Have you looked at other options, such as a childminder, to see if that would be cheaper? Or is there a family member who could maybe have the baby one day a week (although I guess if there was, you'd have already gone down this route).

When you break it down, it totally makes sense that there’s not much you could cut back on doesn’t it? I noticed you said 4 days childcare- do you work 4 days not 5? (Just curious, not judging- I don’t work full time.) Would a nanny be cheaper if you had two (ie could do all baby childcare AND wrap around care)?

I think if you really really wanted another baby OP it wouldn’t matter.
But there’s nothing wrong with your budget, ignore the dicks.

I work 4 days yes. Increasing to 5 days would be negated by the extra childcare and travel in a second child situation.

Would I get a nanny for less than £1600 a month all in? I didn’t think so but I don’t have any experience of nannies. Plus you become their employer right?

You do become their employer yes which means paying their tax and NI. If you go on nanny tax (google) you can work out how much you’d be looking at. Depends where abouts in London you are of course. There are pros and cons to nannies. What do you do about the school holidays currently, childcare wise?

We have a childminder so DS just goes there in the holidays or we take days off. Bit of a mix but we pay either way, it’s just reduced the days he isn’t actually there.

Loan - 300

I'm not sure what this loan is for but is there any chance you could borrow more on the mortgage to pay it off? Bad long term because you'll end up paying more in interest, but means you'll end up with lower payments in the short term, and you can normally overpay a bit without fees.