How can it be possible that we would be so skint!

[BasinHaircut]

Just doing some sums to basically work out whether we can ‘afford’ to have another child. We can, but I’ve just worked out that even though DH and I bring home £4500 per month net, PLUS childcare vouchers of £385 per month, once paying another set of childcare fees 4 days per week, after everything was paid out each month we would have £750 left over for food, petrol and other spends. There would be 4 of us to feed so let’s say £300 a month, plus £100 petrol. £350 for all of us for anything else.

How is it possible that we would have so little? I know it would be short term (until free 15 hours kick in and then better again once they started school) but what the fuck???

Going through our expenses it’s only things such as amazon prime and Apple Music that we could feasibly claw back each month. Nothing that would make a dent.

We are lucky I suppose that we own our house, have renovated it already so not expecting any big expenses in the medium term. But still, even Xmas would be a real struggle!

This is not a stealth boast I promise, I genuinely cannot understand how we can have so much coming in and still not even have enormous go to justify a takeaway if we have another child.

My son is already at school. We still pay £450 a month average for before and after school and holiday care. That would not change.

I know what the choices are, I said explicitly what you have said here a few posts back.

All I was saying is that £6k buffer sounds like a lot, but when you think about how long that would need to last when there is no more it’s really not much at all.

I wasn’t come bring pension as saving to be fair. We pay into work pensions so that’s already accounted for.

And I wouldn’t mind giving up holidays in the traditional sense (week away etc) for a few years, but never being able to have a day out sounds utterly miserable (in the context of bringing in almost £5k a month)

How are future generations meant to afford university, a home, a pension, children & inevitably healthcare?

Another reason for maybe not having another child. I want to be able to help the one that already exists.

Yes I would really like 1 more (have 2 already) but who knows.

But your income and outgoings won't stay the same forever. Get through the pinchy years and hopefully your career/income will improve too.

Personally I would choose siblings.

Basin I have read another thread whereby you say you have no desire for a second.

I think that you are thinking of reasons why you shouldn’t have a second.

Follow your gut. You don’t want a second.

basin it could well be that having a second child is better for your dc in many non financial but resilience related respects too though. Having to share, not having all the surplus resources spent on them, seeing their parents making a few tough money choices and a bit of struggling at times.

I was mulling over with a friend that a lot of middle class dc have no real experience of their parents not being able to afford trips, multiple toys at birthdays and Christmas, etc, lots and lots of privilege they take for granted.

I hear you about it not being an easy choice, but you will save £500 pm in childcare by the time the second child is at school, and I’m not sure it’s so great psychologically if you stick with 1 DC for that dc as you run the risk of over spending on that one, possibly.

Yes that’d make sense high, basin you’ve got plenty of ways to make the money work and not be miserable with a second dc, but if your heart isn’t in it, don’t do it. I had the second because I really really wanted her and sorting everything else around making that work.

You might have to cut your cloth a bit to avoid debt, but as you said it is only short term. Another child will be a life long bonus. It seems a shame to deny yourself that if you really want it, because of a short term cash flow problem.

You could always use an interest free credit card (and keep swapping for other interest free deals when they run out of the interest free period)for those unexpected emergencies as you know you will easily be in a position to pay it off when the childcare bill reduces. If, like it does to me, debt sounds scary, then you can aim to not to use it, but you know you have it there as an emergency back up.

YANBU, I understand. Childcare costs are the issue. My DC are older now but childcare was the killer for us too, £1200 a month at one point (Scotland not London). We now have double your income and still don’t have much disposable income as things which some people consider luxuries become the norm - gymnastics classes, art classes, dance classes, runnning 2 cars (second hand not on finance), eating decent quality food, a house that is big enough so children all have their own bedroom. Everyone always spends to their limit, some people earn more than other, some people are luckier than others, that, for better or worse, is our society.

£30 per week on food for 3 of you!

That’s £1.40 per person per day. I’m sure that’s possible (it’s probably possible to do it for £1) but only if you eat very frugally and have no treats. Even a Mars bar would account for half someone’s daily spend.

Also, I’m always amazed that people can’t fathom how people can possibly spend, day, £150 per week on a family shop.... surely it doesn’t take that much imagination! It’s hardly having lobster, truffles and champagne every night!

Mmm...or they could, y'know, sell their horse or tell their gardener to skip a week or something.

The Op clearly isn’t in that place... You seem to be embittered, believing that the world either consists of those who are struggling, and everyone else - the “middle class” - who have piles of cash and fritter their money away on horses and staff!

But if someone's on a small food budget, they're hardly likely to be buying mars bars at corner shop prices, so that's irrelevant.

Shop at Aldi or stick to special offers in other supermarkets and £1.40 per person per day would be hard, but far from impossible.

Porridge is very cheap, so that's breakfast sorted for pennies, or a couple of eggs on toast would be in budget for any meal
Lunch could be something like a tin of soup and a roll for about 50-60pence
Dinner - curry or chilli made with cheaper veg and canned pulses and some rice and that would probably all come in under budget. Spices are not expensive if you stay away from branded jars.

Loads of other ideas too, just have to think a bit, have access to cheaper supermarkets and accept that it's not all going to be more expensive stuff like fresh fish, blueberries and avocados.

According to the ONS, the average food shop for a family of unspecified size is £53.20 a week, so those spending £150-200 per week, which I agree is easy to do, have a lot of scope to cut down, if it was necessary.

You might think fresh fish, imported organic vegetables and posh ready meals are basic food shopping, but that isn't the case for people on more average incomes.

But a tenner a week per person would be miserable unless you had no choice. No one would be willingly putting themselves in the position where they need to do that.

Also if that includes all grocery shopping you need to consider things such as tea bags, washing powder and other cleaning products, bin bags, loo roll etc. So wouldn’t be £1.40 on meals per day.

OP, you'll get good advice on moneysavingexpert.com

Here we have to pretend that you we all live on £12k....

Just to add, if you are used to having a decent income with a bit of extra cash to spend on treats, it is a bit rubbish to not have that. It’s not anywhere near as rubbish as those people who can’t find money for milk etc. But I think it’s quite harsh to be criticising people who are feeling that pinch as saying things like ‘well try living on £5 for 2 weeks’ (or whatever). No one would want that, or wish that on anyone.

Lots of people do have a decent income, and still find some things a stretch or go through difficult times. Just because they’re not living on the breadline (or below) doesn’t mean it’s not ok to ask for advice or help about spending/budget/lifestyle etc.

I also think people have a warped sense of the term ‘can/can’t afford.’ Lots of my friends claim they ‘can’t afford’ x or y but in the same sentence talk about their holiday to the Caribbean or whatever. Goes back to the ‘it’s all relative’ and ‘what constitutes a necessity or a luxury’ Points.

Mmm...or they could, y'know, sell their horse or tell their gardener to skip a week or something

The Op clearly isn’t in that place... You seem to be embittered, believing that the world either consists of those who are struggling, and everyone else - the “middle class” - who have piles of cash and fritter their money away on horses and staff!

I'm not embittered and nor do I think that

If you read back, in order and in context, I wasn't responding to the op but to another poster who made a ridiculous comparison between someone on £80k and someone needing to count pennies as being similarly skint at the end of the month...and I used exact examples, provided on this thread, by posters who have claimed a similar income to the op and also that they 'can't afford' xyz because of those 'essential' outgoings.

And on the subject of class...I'm of the opinion that the definitions of 'middle class' have become so blurred that it now exists mainly only in the minds of those that like to believe themselves so, for their own validation purposes.

But that's a whole other thread 😂

I think we as a society have become used to a higher standard of living where playcentre trips, meals out etc are seen as 'just what you do'. Social media doesn't help either. I think it's worrying to think how many people are believing they have the money for numerous trips out that their children 'have' to have, without saving up for the future and making more sensible choices.
My children constantly ask for things and sometimes it's yes but quite happy to tell them no. When asked why I explain that toys/Ice-creams etc cost money, we work got that money and have to pay for lots of things and tell them about something nice we'll spend money on that day/week that they'll get more out of.
I have a similar amount to the op at the first of the month. I wish we had more but have accepted that for the next few years we need to make the best of it.

^^^^ this. 100%

We also live in a society where everything is replaceable, and there is just so, so much choice. (Too much I think). Whilst my kids have been at their holiday club today, I’ve sorted through all their toys and have 6 large bags to give away. Some stuff only played with once. It’s insane.

Thanks! Sorry, few typos in there.
For me it's simple things that amaze me like meeting up with friends to go to the park and theie pre-schoolers (same age as one of mine) have to have an ice-cream as everyone else is having one. Then the same children have to have a go on one of the funfair type rides. They have to. I get jokingly called mean if I say it's one or the other or even (shock, horror) nothing today apart from a lovely play at the park. It's not great being harder like this but I'm trying to think long term and all those saved ice-creams and rides will be spent on a trip somewhere or a bigger treat. It also makes it a 'treat' (because that word is used so often these days) when my children can have a few things at once and even a pre- schooler can appreciate how special that is when it doesn't happen every time.

I think we as a society have become used to a higher standard of living where playcentre trips, meals out etc are seen as 'just what you do'

Er no. Some people have got used to that, which is why you have idiots on 80 k a year whining about being poor.
Other sections of society try and get by on a tenth of that, use food banks and certainly do not think of meals out etc as "just what you do".

OP is a privileged, well off, well housed and employed person with more than enough money to care for herself and her family and enjoy a good standard of living. If she has to feel slightly less well off for a few years while she has chosen to have children close together and therefore have a large childcare bill temporarily, that is hardly the end of the world.