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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How can it be possible that we would be so skint!

530 replies

BasinHaircut · 04/04/2018 11:12

Just doing some sums to basically work out whether we can ‘afford’ to have another child. We can, but I’ve just worked out that even though DH and I bring home £4500 per month net, PLUS childcare vouchers of £385 per month, once paying another set of childcare fees 4 days per week, after everything was paid out each month we would have £750 left over for food, petrol and other spends. There would be 4 of us to feed so let’s say £300 a month, plus £100 petrol. £350 for all of us for anything else.

How is it possible that we would have so little? I know it would be short term (until free 15 hours kick in and then better again once they started school) but what the fuck???

Going through our expenses it’s only things such as amazon prime and Apple Music that we could feasibly claw back each month. Nothing that would make a dent.

We are lucky I suppose that we own our house, have renovated it already so not expecting any big expenses in the medium term. But still, even Xmas would be a real struggle!

This is not a stealth boast I promise, I genuinely cannot understand how we can have so much coming in and still not even have enormous go to justify a takeaway if we have another child.

OP posts:
Springiscoming123 · 05/04/2018 10:42

don't get having 4.5k a month and mortgage £900 leaving £3.4k

Easily done though. Our income is approx £4.7k net with approx outgoings

Mortgage - £550
Car - £200
Fuel - £350
Childcare - £130
Loans - £650
Insurances - £90
TV - £70
Phones - £50

And yet we have cheap holidays, guessing we spend under £2k per year on average, I wear clothes with holes in, DW buys some new clothes but nothing outrageous and our DC does have nice clothes.

We still feel totally skint, and this thread is motivating me to try and work out exactly where all this cash goes, it’s certainly not on eating out and Starbucks.

i really cant see how your skint

your total income is £4.7k take home

your outgoings are £2.090 k (your figures)

you have left to play with £2.6 left a month,that is very differrent from op,if you say your skint with over £600 a week disposable something is very wrong

BarbaraofSevillle · 05/04/2018 10:51

Well that poster still needs to account for food and utilities and has a great fuck of £650 bank loan, but it seems that a lot on this thread define 'skint' as running out of money before they have spent all their money on all the luxuries they can think of.

Skint is barely having enough to cover the basics, not having to decide between keeping horses and spending hundreds of pounds a month on cleaners and gardeners or spending twice the national average on food shopping.

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 05/04/2018 10:57

It's not an easy question OP. You can clearly do it and cope if you want to, but it's whether you're ok with the impact on you and the family. In what is already a fairly modest lifestyle given the amount you have coming in, there isn't a lot of pain free slack to cut.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but how old are you both and are salaries likely to increase in the near future? Eg if you're both 35 and one of you is likely to get a promotion within the next 2-3 years, you might decide to wait a while longer.

Springiscoming123 · 05/04/2018 10:57

Yes didnt include food but the huge bank loan has nothing to do with the big amount left,its accounted for,

Still a very decent amount and saying their skint is ridiculous,no way comparable to the op

firstworldproblems2018 · 05/04/2018 10:58

NC for this, and it will be a bit of a ramble of thoughts.

I don’t think anyone with an ounce of sense would think someone who is looking down the back of the sofa to find enough change to buy a loaf of bread, or having to choose between putting the heating on for an hour or buying something for dinner can be compared to the OP who is wondering whether £350 spare each month is enough.

Clearly, the person in the first scenario is far, far worse off and IMO no one in 21st century Britain should ever be in a position where they can’t buy basic food for themselves and kids and be warm enough. I don’t know what the solution is, and it’s awful. Particularly bad is when families who are entitled to FSM have to get through the long holidays feeding their kids 3 meals a day. Some of these children go properly hungry in the holidays- this shouldn’t be happening.

You could sensibly argue that the only ‘necessities’ a family needs are decent shelter, food, water and enough money for food and enough electric/gas to cook, wash and heat a home comfortably. Sadly this isn’t the case for everyone, and for those people living in poverty without these basic necessities something needs to be done.

On the other end of the scale, you have people who complain about the cost of running second homes or complaining they can’t afford to go skiing this year. Clearly, this is not in any way comparable to those without basic standards of living, and I find it hugely difficult to feel any sympathy there.

BUT there is a middle ground, a bit like the OPs situation. If you have a professional job, work hard, live in an area where living costs are high etc it can be a ‘worry’ to only have £350 a month, there’s no getting away from the fact that it costs money to live, and while you might not be trying to find 50p for bread, you might be trying to find £150 for your car to pass its MOT which you need for work.

I also think people with decent incomes have completely lost sight of what is a necessity and what is a luxury. We have a cleaner. That is a luxury. It doesn’t matter if you and your partner work 70 hour weeks. So do lots of people who can’t afford a cleaner- it’s a luxury. I hear trotted out often ‘but my time with my husband and kids is so precious because I work so hard- I don’t want to spend it cleaning.’ Fine, but do you think nurses, for example, who work long shifts want to spend their time off cleaning? No. But they do.

Of course, if you can afford a cleaner, like we can, great. It saves you having to do it, and you’re providing a job for someone which is good. But please don’t pretend it’s ‘essential’ because it’s really not. Same goes for shopping at Waitrose, putting your kids in pricey holidays clubs if you’re not at work, etc. Those are luxuries. Luxuries that are doing good, actually, but still a luxury.

Today my 2 kids are at a holiday club they wanted to do. I’m not working today. It’s cost me £80 for the two of them. I’ve just been to Waitrose and spent £40 on ‘bits and pieces’ and picked up my click and collect order of a new coffee machine which was £160 as ours broke, followed by having waxing for £45. The postman has just delivered a couple of new bits from a kids’ clothing company from Instagram. ALL of these things are nothing other than luxuries. I’m not saying this to boast. Compared to many people we have a LOT less money than they do. But we (obviously) also have a lot more than many.

I suppose my point in all of this is, it is all relative, of course we should feel much more sympathy for those who are barely making ends meet than those who are contemplating not having another child because £350 spare cash isn’t enough each month. But it’s a sliding scale of ‘problems’ and it’s not a race to the bottom.

BiscayTrafalgarFitzroy · 05/04/2018 11:00

There is no way you have to spend £300 on food a month. Go to Aldi or something.

formerbabe · 05/04/2018 11:00

I don’t think anyone with an ounce of sense would think someone who is looking down the back of the sofa to find enough change to buy a loaf of bread, or having to choose between putting the heating on for an hour or buying something for dinner can be compared to the OP who is wondering whether £350 spare each month is enough.

Not necessarily. All it takes is for the person with £350 a month spare to have a broken down car/fridge/washing machine plus two kids needing school shoes and they'll be looking down the sofa by the end of the month for small change.

SecretBum · 05/04/2018 11:11

I also think people with decent incomes have completely lost sight of what is a necessity and what is a luxury

I think this sums up the thread tbh.

SecretBum · 05/04/2018 11:12

All it takes is for the person with £350 a month spare to have a broken down car/fridge/washing machine plus two kids needing school shoes and they'll be looking down the sofa by the end of the month for small change

Snort.

Mmm...or they could, y'know, sell their horse or tell their gardener to skip a week or something.

firstworldproblems2018 · 05/04/2018 11:14

formerbabe (sorry I don’t know how to do the bold quote thing) I see your point, BUT I would say the person who usually has £350 spare each month would be in a better position to cut back on other things if they had suddenly lots of big unexpected outgoings... eg spending less at the supermarket that month, using stuff in the fridge or freezer, putting a bit on a credit card and being confident they’d be able to pay it back. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be hard, but I just don’t believe it’s comparable to a family who regularly are trying to scrape enough money together for bread and milk

BasinHaircut · 05/04/2018 11:27

Couple of points:

I don’t have a cleaner, gardener, horses or ANY pets.

I shop at Lidl and Aldi already and for the 4 of us there already are it’s average £60 a week and that’s for all meals including lunches apart from DS school dinners. £300 a month to feed 4 people would be cheap IMO. Unless I want to live off beans on toast but I don’t, and as I and a PP said it isn’t (or shouldn’t be) a race to the bottom.

If I had to sacrifice the modest but healthy way we eat now for another child then quite frankly I’m out. I wouldn’t do that to myself and certainly not to 2 children.

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 05/04/2018 11:29

I don't think £350 a month is much of a buffer. Like others have said if the washing machine breaks, or car needs new tyres, and an MOT, or one of you has a few days off on unpaid sick leave, or the cat gets run over your easily stuffed, unless you have savings.

We have a lower income and lower outgoings. I've not worked it all out, but we have twice that in disposable income. (South east) this month alone I've had to find just under £1400 for the car, (ongoing project) one month the cat cost £1800 for a two week stay in vet ICU unit having its legs fixed, eye saved, and it's face wired back together. Yes....I know I should have insured it! But the insurance would have wanted him written off no doubt.

But yes, it's all relative, a family on less would have lost their dear pet, and now be without a car needed to get to work. As it is, this morning I'm skint but I'm still fortunate.

The other issue is of course that all people need actually to spend on "things" disposable income keeps the wheels of capitalism turning. Those at the very top can never buy back all the goods and services created.

BasinHaircut · 05/04/2018 11:29

Sorry 3 of us there already are

OP posts:
BarbaraofSevillle · 05/04/2018 11:37

I don't think £350 a month is much of a buffer. Like others have said if the washing machine breaks, or car needs new tyres, and an MOT, or one of you has a few days off on unpaid sick leave, or the cat gets run over your easily stuffed, unless you have savings

If you aren't already saving for those things, you don't really have £350 a month spare. Part of budgeting well is putting money away for irregular or unexpected expenses because they will happen sooner or later. That money is not available to be spent on day to day discretionary spends.

Sorry to hear about your cat, hope it pulled through. But rest assured, the insurance companies don't 'write them off' Smile. Most policies include around £5-10k pa vet fees cover and really the main consideration is whether the animal is likely to survive the injuries and have a good quality of life afterwards etc. For example, I would think twice about putting a severely injured cat through multiple operations when it may be kinder to put it to sleep.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 05/04/2018 11:41

The difference is that the ‘stretched middle classes’ (sorry 🤮) have savings , and if not they should do . Anyone who can afford to take the family away and have family meals out and visit Legoland shouldn’t NOT be saving IMHO

So when my car breaks and the roof leaks I can (reluctantly ) dip into my savings to pay for it

Some people literally have fuck all spare

So we as a society have normalised so much stuff as a necessity that truly isn’t

The Media perpetuates a notion that to have all this shit is necessary for a happy life

Highhorse1981 · 05/04/2018 11:50

I totally get it OP.

That is not much leftover at all IMO

BasinHaircut · 05/04/2018 11:53

Absolutely. We had savings but a few years ago we used them to invest our home. Then we started to build them up again and then last year we had a really bad year and needed a new boiler, car stuff before we gave up and got a new one, and a few other less expensive things that we had to dip in for and it all adds up and left us with not much. But that’s what they were for so we survived.

This is what I’m saving about the £350. That would be to cover EVERYTHING non essential including rainy day saving - which we couldn’t afford to do on this amount IMO.

I don’t think you should never be allowed to eat out or visit a theme park if you aren’t able to save. Obviously you have to cut your cloth but never? That’s not living that’s existing.

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 05/04/2018 11:54

Thank you Barbaraofseville, he did pull through. I never thought he would, but the emergency vets who took him (it was out of hours) were confident they could save him. Despite giving them nearly two grand I still hugged them Smile He became a bit senile and loopy though. He was left with epilepsy and a limp. He's died now though. Came home bleeding from his mouth and ears. No idea if it was related.

Glittertrauma · 05/04/2018 11:54

The cost of childcare is absolutely shocking, but it's 30 free hours now, not 15 isn't it? I must admit to deliberately timing my second child so that the first would be three before she starts nursery - there's no way I could afford to pay two sets of fees at once, even though both of us are on good incomes. Some of your bills sound a little excessive though - £300 on good? We spend under £30 a week to feed three of us, and we buy whatever we want really. I never understand how people spend so much on food!

MiniTheMinx · 05/04/2018 11:58

Glitter how do you manage to eat on £30 a week?

Bluelady · 05/04/2018 11:58

This has been bugging me and I've finally worked out why. Meticulously planning for a second child is obviously really sensible. Surely it would also be sensible to set up a savings account now, when there's still relatively ample disposable income, so there's an emergency fund for all those unforeseen expenses?

If you did that, OP, and put £500 a month into it, you'd have around £6k at the very least to fall back on for all that expenditure that may or may not be needed during the lean months/years. If none of those expenses came up, there's a very nice family holiday for four waiting at the end.

BasinHaircut · 05/04/2018 11:59

glitter is be interested to see your shopping list. Does that include all meals/snacks including work lunches and household bits such as washing powder?

OP posts:
BasinHaircut · 05/04/2018 12:06

You make it sound so simple blue.

We are saving, we always save. But it’s so easily wiped out after a few bad/unlucky months and if you aren’t able to add to it for a few years £6k wouldn’t last.

A years hard saving, then say a year MAT leave, plus another 3-4 years until they started school. That £6k would need to last 5-6 years (if you include the year we we were saving it up). Doesn’t sound as much when you put it like that.

OP posts:
Bluelady · 05/04/2018 12:16

It really is simple. I'm really sorry if this sounds harsh but you have two choices - you can have another child which means compromising your current lifestyle in the short term or you can continue living as you are and consider your family complete. Only you can decide that.

Your calculations are out anyway, your childcare costs would fall dramatically when the oldest starts school. Depending on the age of your existing child, that could be as little as a couple of years.

I know you'll say my view is because I'm a dinosaur but when my son was small, we all expected to be financially stretched when our children were little because most households existed on one income.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 05/04/2018 12:26

I don’t think you should never be allowed to eat out or visit a theme park if you aren’t able to save. Obviously you have to cut your cloth but never? That’s not living that’s existing

I don’t know ! I am not saying people should live a life of penury and some things are sacred (holidays !) but it amazes me how people can afford leisure and then say they can’t save for their pension as an example .