'Rapists' anonymity

[lostjanni]

Have been reading the post about the Irish rugby players and it got me thinking, do people accused of rape deserve anonymity until they're found guilty?

In my opinion yes, it was on the news a while ago that a man was accused and put through 15 months of he'll, lost his jobs, friends and family. And it turned out the girl had made it all up and had texts to prove she was lying. That guy suffered immenseley. And many do when wrongly accused. So I was thinking AIBU to think people accused of rape or sexual assault crimes should be kept anonymous until proven guilty?

You can't debate someone who is so out of touch with the realities of the situation.

Yep

You're right tunnel vision helps no one. Your focus on the relatively small number of false allegations compared the huge number of rapists who walk free every year is baffling.

But to each person whose life is damaged by false accusations it is devastating. You can't just dismiss the damage to each person in a group by saying it is worse for another group.

Megs the wider issue is that it's very difficult to get a conviction and this deters women from reporting.

Only a minority of women would falsely make an accusation.

Anyone can be accused of a crime, which doesn't necessarily lead to anything. I was trying to point out that if a woman accuses a man of rape the man is not automatically hauled away and charged, they'd be questioned (unless it was something more dramatic like it happened in public) and the woman isn't automatically believed.

Trouble is most rapes take place behind closed doors.

You have to focus on the small number of innocent people because not punishing innocent people is massively more important than punishing guilty people.

@DeleteorDecay

Sources? What ‘huge’ numbers? I’m tired of hearing that sexual assault is hugely under-reported. I agree it is under-reported, but no-one knows to what extent, so to assume it’s ‘huge’ numbers is pure guesswork. Men get all the flak for what, in many cases, is behavour that is brushed off if women do it. Just like domestic violence, a man on the receiving end of that is generally laughed at, deemed hen-pecked and not believed because no woman bullys or assaults her husband, right?

What about all the sexual assaults committed by women against men, one of which I witnessed only recently. The poor boy blushed scarlet and the girl goosing him thought his blushes were hilarious. That incident won't get reported or taken seriously but it should be and I wonder how many more thousands there are like it. It was however, dealt with sensibly and she was treated with the contempt she deserved. Bad manners are best ignored, not criminalised don't you think? When it’s a woman/girl behaving badly, anyway.

You seem to be saying that children banned from having a relationship with their father because he was accused (not convicted) of a sexual offence is acceptable. That’s one of the consequences of a sexual allegation. Children shouldn’t be dismissed as collateral damage. Everyone deserves justice. You might think differently if it was your child who was accused or if your children couldn’t have a relationship with their father whom you believed to be innocent of any crime. Or you who’s relationship with your grandchildren was compromised because your husband was accused.
Or are you saying that if a woman accused your husband you would automatically accept that he is a rapist, or paedophile, sexual predator or whatever else she was accusing him of?

Worrying about the small number of false allegations and worrying about rapists walking free are not mutually exclusive.

You can do both.

But since this thread was concerning the innocent accused, I focussed on the small number of people making false allegations to make my point that when it does happen, we rarely see them punished for the trouble they've caused.

That does not take anything away from the horrible fact that rapists walk free every day. But I've no idea how to tackle it, so can't pass comments.

Wow, obviously it's misogyny day. Some lovely opinions on here. for everyone unfortunate enough to have been a victim of this horrific crime.

Some thoughts:
1 It's not lack of anonymity that 'ruins lives' as you put it. Maybe for the very small number of men who are already in the public eye or Paddy Jackson's co-defendants. Not for other men. They may still lose their jobs, the neighbours will gossip, their friends will find out. This is because of things like bail conditions and the police investigating.

2 People are much more concerned about false rape allegations than e.g. false child sexual abuse accusations. The latter carry much more stigma. However, nobody is jumping up to defend suspected pedophiles to the same extent as rapists.

3 If an allegation is '100% false' as you put it, yes, the accuser can be tried for perjury and this has happened before. She will then be named. So what you are suggesting already exists, thanks.

4 I am not sure why you are in favour of naming the victim. How does this help anyone.

5 The comments about false accusations about burglary vs false accusations about rape were actually spot on and the person who accused the other of looking stupid actually came across as the idiot. There is a culture of thinking that women generally lie about rape. This is so dangerous. There are a few women who lie. They usually have MH issues. There are also people who lie about being burgled or robbed and about other crimes. But it's only for rape that we go on this witch-hunt against false accusers.

6 Anyone who has read the transcripts and reports from the Belfast trial and be comfortable with the verdict needs their head examining.

7 The comparison between men and women who get drunk and responsibility was offensive. Getting drunk and being flirtatious is not the same as attacking someone. That is what men should be held responsible for- rape. Not getting drunk- rape.

8 I don't give a shit if Paddy Jackson and his mates have their lives ruined. I doubt they will anyway, but if they do, it gives me a small iota of satisfaction that they will at least face some consequences.

I focussed on the small number of people making false allegations to make my point that when it does happen, we rarely see them punished for the trouble they've caused.

How do you know that? Have you been examining statistics on numbers of people charged with perjury? You do realise that in some of the cases you have mentioned, the text messages did not 'prove innocence beyond doubt'- they merely undermined the prosecution case and had not been disclosed as they should have been, rendering any conviction unsafe and undermining any charges brought. They were not necessarily enough to charge someone with perjury.

It is rare that women who have made false allegations get prosecuted for perjury. It is normally excused as a MH issue.

The reason people think anonymity for the accused is because the accuser has anonymity. No other adult gets this protection. I believe minors do if they are the accused or accuser.

I don't want to see rapists get away with it, I also don't want to see innocent men in jail. It is perfectly possible to hold both views and persecuting/prosecuting innocent men doesn't help rape victims.

Just like domestic violence, a man on the receiving end of that is generally laughed at, deemed hen-pecked and not believed because no woman bullys or assaults her husband, right?

Nope. Another myth. Male victims are in fact MORE likely to report an assault by a female partner to the police than the other way round and women are more likely to be arrested if a report is made against them.

I think one thing is clear- women do not murder their male partners at a rate of more than 2 per week, do they? Pretty hard to refute that one.

@LanguidLobster in Scotland a person can be summonsed to court on a charge of a sexual offence without ever having been questioned by a police officer. In England he can be arrested on the basis of a phone call and the police can - and do - refuse to take statements from anyone with information to defend him. Once accused the focus is on securing a conviction, not on establishing the truth. If you think a woman isn't officially believed you haven’t been following the news and the Henriques Report wouldn’t have recommended an end to the policy of automatically believing complainants and to stop calling complainants victims until there is a guilty verdict - amongst other things. Arrests are made on the basis of a phone call and charges are brought these days often based on the seriousness of the allegations rather than evidence, especially in historical cases when there is only the word of the complainant and no physical evidence. That’s why fantasists have a field day and often make multiple accusations. Men can languish for months running into years waiting for a charging decision and that’s not good for genuine victims as well as those who are the victim of a false allegation.

Protecting the innocent isn't more important than prosecuting the guilty, but we are rapidly getting to the position where a man accused of a sexual offence has to prove his innocence and that flies in the face of our whole system.

It is rare that women who have made false allegations get prosecuted for perjury. It is normally excused as a MH issue.

Or, y'know, it could be that they actually do have MH issues.... Shocking. I mean it does sound so tempting to endure 7 weeks of being ripped to shreds and called a whore and a liar on the witness stand, being subjected to intimate examinations, having my name sullied on social media, having my underwear waved around the courtroom. I can definitely see why so many women are so keen to make false allegations, I definitely can.

You have no idea what you're going on about.

Using the burglary example

1. there is no preconceived notion or culture of belief that people lie about being burgled.
2. when someone does lie about being burgled, it doesn't validate a preconceived notion so has no effect.
3. There is a preconceived belief that women lie. It's wrong, it's disgusting but it exists.
4. When a woman lies about rape, all those who already think "women lie about rape" can go "told you so".
5. you do not get that affect with other crimes, because no one is waiting at the side to say "told you so".
6. certina people are waiting to say "told you so" about rape.

It's wrong, and horrendous and so deeply undeserved but it exists. So when people lie, it causes harm to women.

I never once said name the victim.

I have checked out the stats - police, cps and defence lawyers have openly said that they believe the accuser made it up but then no charges are filed. Often, it is mental illness but in that case, charges should be filed and the punishment should be a treatment facility because who do that need help.

but we are rapidly getting to the position where a man accused of a sexual offence has to prove his innocence and that flies in the face of our whole system

Are we? Can you point to where convictions for rape and sexual offences has actually gone up then?
Can I ask whether you are suggesting that the police should stop investigating reports? Because that seems to be it. It has little to do with anonymity. Liam Allen for instance was never named in any of the press before his case was dropped due to undisclosed texts. It was the stress of a charge hanging over him that he said ruined his life. It had nothing to do with anonymity. So are you saying we should just not investigate because of the stress it causes men?

@SusanBunch - agreed, more men murder their partners than the other way round, but that has no bearing on the fact that there are male partners suffering at the hands of their female partners who are afraid of seeking help. What might happen if they do make a report is irrelevant if they are too afraid to do so.

www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story?utm_source=et&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailynewsletter&utm_content=&utm_name=

This is an interesting story about a rape accusation and then a recantation - and then the rapist turned out to be a serial rapist. Women are routinely seen as liars - always have been. It is probably easier than accepting what they are saying is true since what they say can be so bloody awful.

but we are rapidly getting to the position where a man accused of a sexual offence has to prove his innocence and that flies in the face of our whole system

We are??? Have you been living under a rock for the past week.

Avasarala you seem to think that you're really clever but you don't get the point that people have been shoving in your face repeatedly.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS A CULTURE OF THINKING WOMEN LIE ABOUT RAPE.

That is it. Full stop. There is no such culture around burglary. You are right about that. But you and others on this thread are feeding that culture by talking about 'real victims' and 'false accusers'. This does not happen for other crimes, despite the fact that false accusations are probably around the same. That is the misogyny that people are trying to tackle. By continually peddling the idea that it is the women who make false accusations that are the problem, rather than the rapists, you are fuelling the myth that many rape allegations are false. That myth is probably part of the reason why, despite having witnesses to support her immediate distress following the incident, texts to a friend consistent with her later story, and evidence of bruising and bleeding on her genitals, the woman in the Belfast case was still not believed.

Lots of women are too scared to file a report against their abusive male partners too Meg. Usually because they are terrified their partner will kill them and/or their children.

Being too scared to file a report is not a trait which is exclusive to male victims.

Again...

Women making false accusations and rapists being a problem are not mutually exclusive.

Both are an issue.

Because there is a culture of it, you cannot ignore the affect of false allegations.

You need to shove it out there and tell people how small a percentage they are, how they are so rare etc. Education about the facts is one way if dispelling the myth that "women lie"

The only people I've seen mock or laugh at male abuse victims are other men.

Oh god, 'all about the bloody menz'.

Why is it so much harder for men to have to prove consent than it is for the millions of women who have suffered at the hands of men and male establishments for centuries to continue having no real prospect of redress, let alone any real prospects for the prevention of that suffering from male violence and rape? Why is male suffering always considered to be so much more significant than women's? I particularly lack patience with women who espouse, knowingly or unknowingly, such views, it's bad enough coming from men.

Sources? What ‘huge’ numbers? I’m tired of hearing that sexual assault is hugely under-reported.

rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

Only around 15% of those who experience sexual violence choose to report to the police - I'd say that's pretty huge in terms of under reporting.

Regarding men getting the 'flack', you do realise men get raped too? Around 12,000 per year, at the hands of other men.

Or is it only the female victims who are prone to lying?

but that has no bearing on the fact that there are male partners suffering at the hands of their female partners who are afraid of seeking help

I don't buy this at all. Research has shown that men are more likely to report DV from women and are more likely to be believed. Few men live in fear of female partners- very few are killed, very few are seriously injured, few are financially dependent to the extent that they are unable to leave their partners if they are violent towards them.

It's interesting isn't it? Across the world, >95% of all violent crime is committed by men, prisons are full of men, men commit the vast majority of sexual offences. It has been that way throughout history. Women are murdered, forced to marry, raped, mutilated, tortured, beaten, denied civil rights across the globe, daily. Yet, lots of people feel the need to suggest that this is untrue and that the real victims are men and that they are just too scared to come forward.