'Rapists' anonymity

[lostjanni]

Have been reading the post about the Irish rugby players and it got me thinking, do people accused of rape deserve anonymity until they're found guilty?

In my opinion yes, it was on the news a while ago that a man was accused and put through 15 months of he'll, lost his jobs, friends and family. And it turned out the girl had made it all up and had texts to prove she was lying. That guy suffered immenseley. And many do when wrongly accused. So I was thinking AIBU to think people accused of rape or sexual assault crimes should be kept anonymous until proven guilty?

@SusanBunch

That's my whole fucking point- it shouldn't be an issue BUT IT IS.

There is a culture of not believing women. It is an issue.

It shouldn't be. It's awful, but it's there.

So ignoring people who say "well, one woman lied so loads will" does not change that culture.

You need to tackle it head on. And discuss openly how small the number of false allegations are.

Education is the only way to chip away at the belief that women lie. That us my whole point.

You can think "it shouldn't be an issue" but thinking that doesn't provide a solution. Fighting it with the facts does. And to try and stop false allegations altogether, and to show how little there really are, prosecute them. Show everyone it happens once a year or whatever.

I've had experience of police volunteers before. One of them chose to tell half my hometown I was lying about an assault, despite evidence to the contrary. So take your 'the poor man's family suffers which isn't fair even if he did do it' and shove it.

I agree. OP, I think you should stop volunteering for the police. Your attitude is not of any help to a woman making the decision to report a rape. Rape is about having your dignity violated and losing all control over a situation. You go through this again when you give evidence and relive your experience. And now you want to add a third layer- public vilification when you don't see your rapist brought to justice. Lovely.

I would not report a rape either.

And to try and stop false allegations altogether, and to show how little there really are, prosecute them. Show everyone it happens once a year or whatever.

Why are you so convinced that there are loads of false accusations that are not prosecuted? Where are you getting this information from? Undisclosed text messages are not proof of innocence and proof of a malicious allegation by the way.

@SusanBunch

I completely, 100% agree with you that just because one person lies, it doesn't mean everyone is. But that's because we're not against women.

There are so many people who believe that women regularly lie about this. Or who think "but... Really, were you" when they hear a women say she was raped.

They are the problem. They are the ones who say "well this person lied, so loads must be doing it".

We can't fight that by saying "that shouldn't matter". We have to educate on how little it actually happens, so these people don't think it's the norm. Part of that, is by highlighting each year that "x many cases were reported and only 1 was proved false, x many were prosecuted and x many had to be let go due to lack if evidence".

It's almost impossible to make people who strongly believe women lie but how else do you fight it. I honestly don't know.

@SusanBunch

You're just completely ignoring what I'm saying.

The point is, it barely ever happens. But you get this camp of (usually men) saying "I don't believe it". Show them it barely happens. Show them the 1 a year figure that's happened and show them the hundreds with evidence supporting the women.

*it's impossible to make people who strongly believe women lie feel any differently

It's like telling a racist "it shouldn't matter that they're black".

That's not going to change a damn thing about how that person thinks.

Avasarala earlier on the thread, you said you had 'checked out the stats' and that the CPS did not generally bring prosecutions for perjury. Where are these stats from?

You also talk about women ruining the lives of innocent people and reference the cases that fell apart due to undisclosed text messages. While the trial may have fallen apart, those messages by themselves do not prove innocence. You also talk about how women should 'face the gruel' and essentially be publicly named and shamed.

Every time a rape trial ends in an acquittal, there is a baying mob calling for naming and shaming of the victim. The woman in the Ched Evans trial has had to flee the country, being named repeatedly. The Belfast woman has already been named online. Where there are perjury proceedings, it adds fuel to the fire with lots of comments about this being the tip of the iceberg. It does precisely fuck all to convince people that false accusations are rare.

What about all the people acquitted of all manner of crimes? Why do we not round on the witnesses there and call them all liars and call for prosecutions? Perjury trials will do nothing to help. Your call to name and shame women at the top of the thread seemed to be based on seeking revenge- 'tasting the gruel' etc rather than real justice.

it's impossible to make people who strongly believe women lie feel any differently

In that case, I would be in favour of abolishing jury trials. Having seen many juries in action, I think they are a pretty dangerous thing, but especially in the case of sexual assault and rape, bringing in their uneducated, Daily Mail informed views on how people behave. I would rather have a panel of trained, educated individuals who understand the issues at hand and have some sort of understanding of what they are dealing with. We have already abolished them for complex fraud cases for the reason that they have no clue what they are judging. I feel the same about rape. I don't think the majority of the public know enough about rape and human psychology to be able to adequately judge a trial. I also dislike the fact that they are totally unaccountable and we have no idea whether they actually discussed the case properly or tossed a coin to decide the verdict.

If anyone commits perjury, or wastes that much time and resources and impacts on someone life like that, they need to face the punishment.

If someone lies, they are not a victim. So I'm not asking yo name victims.

This thread is not about every other crime. I havnt once said "my feels only apply to rape cases". I'd think it's pretty fucking clear how I feel about perjury, but in this discussion, we are discussing rape cases. So I'm not gonna list every other crime - it does not mean I don't have the same feelings. That is a nonsensical argument designed to detail a discussion when you don't like how it's going.

One reason that there is a baying mob is that when a message is released saying "he didn't do it but I wanted to get back at him" and no one is punished for it, people get mad at every other victim.

Punish the few that do that shit, show the world they are punished. She when they're not, believe believe it's because they didn't lie.

The culture of not believing women hasn't changed for hundreds of years, so the current methods aren't working.

More education is needed. Not a bunch if crazed feminists shouting "it shouldn't matter".

I'm out.

I have made that exact point about juries.
Which is why I am so against hiding the identity of the accused.
We need to be able to read for ourselves and make an informed decision.

We also need to do everything to assure the public that there are barely any liars, and when they are caught, they are punished. So don't let people off because one other person lied.

I'm out

Good. You are part of the problem.

No. You are.

Education is the only way to change opinions. It takes time but over a generation, a culture can change.

That doesn't happen when all you want to do brush the public's concerns under the carpet and scream "it doesn't matter".

It does to them. And yes, it's unfounded but it matters. And education is needed to change things. Their fears need to be assured by punishing when it's appropriate. Then some trust might build.

Your method of shouting "it shouldn't matter" won't change a damn thing and we'll be having the same fight in 50 years.

You're the problem. The people who refuse to allowing to be discussed are the problem. This place is full of lunatics.

In that case, I would be in favour of abolishing jury trials. I feel like that about jury trials, not just for rape but for everything. I don't have a great faith in the great British public.

Out of interest, how many women on here would report rape or sexual assault? I wouldn't bother. Most women probably wouldn't and that is why I think very few women who make false allegations get prosecuted because many of them have signs of mental illness. I know some women lie, I know lots of women don't report rape, I know falsely accused men must go through a really rough time. I think all those people need help.

I don't personally know anyone who has been accused of rape but I do know a teacher who was falsely accused of inappropriately touching a child. She had been told off for something and told other girls she was, "going to get him." She went home and told her mother he had touched her. First he was suspended while it was investigated, then he was signed off sick with stress and finally after the police agreed it was malicious and charges dropped he had to retire as he couldn't face teaching again. That doesn't mean I think children's allegations or women's allegations should be ignored but I do think we have to recognise the damage they can do and that not everyone accused is guilty and second guessing if the not guilty verdict is right or wrong doesn't help any more than second guessing if it was a malicious allegation. Let the police and lawyers do their jobs.

Thanks to the poster saying I should leave the police. Obviously I'm not going to because I care for everyone I deal with and have supported people who have been raped and sexually assulted. I think it is quite rude that because of my question and belief that someone accused of a crime should remain anonymous you think I should leave.
Because I love getting all the grief the normal police do for Nothing!

Let the police and lawyers do their jobs.

The police don't do their jobs.

And the lawyers lie and fabricate stories to suit their clients.

lostjanni do you work for the police...?

Languid. I'm a special police officer so I volunteer about 16 hours a month of my time for nothing

@gluteustothemaximus.
Rude, the police do do their job but with cuts and everything they can't always do as much as they want.

That's right. The Police did a cracking job in Telford.

They also did a cracking job in Rotherham.

I'm sure they're doing cracking jobs all over the country.

Well the public didn't do their job for spotting It then.
Nor did social Services
Nor did the council.
Glute the police do the best they can ok instead of shaming them online let's fight for more funding.

Lost, you can't blame cuts to funding. The police have had a poor track record with regards to rape investigations for decades.

It’s a tough one. Being falsely accused of any crime must be awful let alone rape, but prosecuting false accusations would stop women coming forward and more rapists would get away with their crimes.

It depends where your sympathies lie with the 1 man falsely accused or the corresponding dozens of women raped who don’t get justice.

In the case of Ulster many men are baying for her blood, not understanding that not proven guilty just means a lack of proof. They believe women lie without asking themselves why any woman would put herself through that when she knows women are automatically disbelieved.

As I see it, a distressed woman who is bleeding when on her way home has definitely not consented to sex in any way. She just hasn't.