If a marriage is ok 90% of the time........

[user1471556464]

Long time lurker never thought I would post - please be gentle, I can't work out who is right/wrong.
Have been with DH 10 years, have 2 children age 7 and 5. We both work long hours in the NHS and have an aupair to help with childcare. No family nearby. We have a cleaner for 3 hours a week.
DH is very houseproud, cannot stand mess, wants the house to be spotless at all times. I am very different, can tolerate mess, don't like doing housework, think hoovering once a week is adequate unless you can actually see bits on the floor. I knew what he was like before we had children.
This difference in standards leads to arguments and him shouting at me and the children. He thinks the children should tidy up after themselves, get one toy out at a time etc. I think that it is normal for kids to be untidy and while they should learn to tidy up, it is part of being a parent to have to clean and tidy up after kids to some extent.
We have both changed our standards a bit over the years, I am much better than I used to be at keeping the house tidy/clean and I do make an effort but I'm never going to spend hours doing housework/ wiping marks off walls that I can't even see!
So this weekend DH was working in the mornings. When I know he's on the way home I usually make sure the house is reasonably tidy and the chores have been done. I get stressed wondering if he's going to find something to criticise. 90% of the time it's fine. This weekend he started shouting as soon as he got in the door because the shoes under the stairs were untidy. Then he shouted at the kids because there was some craft stuff out on the table and they were playing with something else. I took the kids out for a walk. When we came back the kids took there muddy boots off in the hallway instead of outside the house so he yelled at them and threw the boots outside. He told the eldest to hoover the mud up which she did. I took over as there was still some on the floor and he shouted at me as I was using the handheld and I should have used the big hoover. At that point I flipped - I usually just keep quiet but I yelled that it was so much nicer when he was at work and I dreaded him coming home.
We haven't spoken since.
I realise what I've written makes him look like an arse. 90% of the time there is no problem but I'm always waiting for the next time. There's no point me busting a gut trying to keep the house absolutely spotless because 1. I will never live up to his standards however hard I try and 2. I've got better things to do with my time and I pay a cleaner to do the jobs I don't want to do.
From his perspective he wants to live in a spotless house and feels he spends all his time tidying up after everyone else. From my perspective you can't live in a showhouse when you work more than full time and have kids. I've shown him other people's houses that are a bit untidy and shown him that other people's cars are not pristine (our cars are spotless inside) and tell him that's how most people live - but he thinks he's right and everyone else is wrong. He was brought up in a house where his mother spent hours doing housework every day and was not allowed to ever be messy.
Sorry for the essay. Just to reiterate this is not a problem all the time but I don't know how to deal with it. I don't want to divorce over it, we have children together. Should I just put up with him shouting at everyone 10% of the time and say nothing to keep the peace? Will the kids ask me in 10 years time why I put up with it?
thanks in advance for any opinions. What do I do?

That, my love, is emotional abuse. Being ‘alright’ 90% of the time does not excuse the 10%; things need to change, and I’m afraid the only way that will happen is you leaving him. You don’t deserve to live constantly walking on eggshells, and neither do your kids.

While I have sympathy for you DH (I am the cleaner spouse) the way he deals with it is wholly unacceptable. You have made a good effort to pick up the slack. Obviously things aren't up to scratch but one can't really expect that without a full time house keeper. The fact that you don't go to extraordinary lengths to keep things clean doesn't give him the right to regularly shout at you. Honestly I think that the man needs some therapy. His reactions a wholly disproportionate.

8 would also be wearing of throwing around terms like emotional abuse. It sounds like the Ops husband cannot control himself more than like he is abusing her.

If he wants his impossibly high standards met he does it. You've compromised and done your best and if that's not good enough for him he can bloody sort it!

@DairyisClosed criticism, aggression, undermining, being made to feel guilty, OP living in fear of doing something ‘wrong’ - sounds like abuse to me.

Dairyisclosed thank you I think this is more the case than emotional abuse.
Bishop I will admit I don't try my best 100% of the time - I'm trying to live up to someone else's standards which is much harder than living up to my own.

@inmemory it's not just op. He does it to the children to. Abuse is deliberate and done with the intention to make op feel that way. The description above suggests that he is just behaving thus way and disregarding the consequences. People often behave this way when they ry are very stressed because they cannot control rather than because they want to make their spouse feel bad.

Umm, doing it to the children too does not mean it’s not abusive it means they will grow up thinking that this is a normal way to behave (it’s not) and then may well go on to repeat this pattern. OP, if you feel this is not abusive - how would you feel about one of your children going on to treat their partner like this? Or in fact being treated like this, and putting up with it because they think it’s normal?

I can see both your sides to a point, i think hoovering once a week is not enough for example but I think your DH sounds a bit too extreme the other way, I would expect kids to tidy up after themselves however they're still very young and need help and you have to expect some mess with children that young. The way he spoke to you about it though is totally unacceptable and I'm not surprised you snapped

I’d suggest you have a look here OP www.relate.org.uk/relationship-help/help-relationships/arguing-and-conflict/what-emotional-abuse
Whatever the reasons for his behaviour, they do not make it ok.

Thanks dairy. What do I do? Obviously it's my side of the story and his would be different I imagine. I know no marriage is perfect and I have my faults but I don't want to live like this.

What do I do? Obviously it's my side of the story and his would be different I imagine. I know no marriage is perfect and I have my faults but I don't want to live like this.

You have to be able to communicate with him calmly and try to come to some compromise, tell him what you told us, if he;s any bit reasonable he's going to be upset that he's made you feel so on edge over this.

No it’s not emotional abuse, but it isn’t acceptable.
It sounds like you both have very full-on lives and I wonder if you get the chance to speak to each other one to one very often? I think setting aside some time to speak about how he is feeling and try to connect for him his high stress levels and his need for control which for him means tidy and spotless. So he tries to change all the outward stuff- mess, kids actions etc instead of looking at what he needs to change inside- his stress, his feelings and emotions. He has obviously spoken about his experience growing up: feeling he cannot ever be messy- ask him honestly if he thinks this has shaped him into a well balanced person (hint- the shouting and controlling isn’t balanced!) and does he want that for his kids? But be mindful that this reaction of his is coming from him being unable to cope well with difficult feelings. Approach it as a team effort and help him feel supported but by all means also tell him you don’t want to feel bullied in your own home or that you and your kids are on eggshells because of his reactions.

Good luck.

Memory - that's my worry that my kids will behave like this when they grow up as they will think it's normal. But then I wonder if I'm overreacting and all kids get shouted at. I shout at them sometimes!

What do I do? Obviously it's my side of the story and his would be different I imagine. I know no marriage is perfect and I have my faults but I don't want to live like this.

Can you discuss it when you are both in a good mood (not tired/stressed/hungry) and try to understand each other's POV a bit better?

Sounds like it would make a big difference to you if he made an effort to stop bellowing at everyone, and a big difference to him if you made more of an effort to support him in teaching the kids to tidy up after themselves. On the one hand, it's not OK for you to feel that you are walking on eggshells around him. On the other hand, if you have different standards than it can be quite stressful if you end up feeling that you are being dumped on with all the little bits and pieces of tidying and cleaning that no-one else can be bothered to do. I don't think it's terribly unreasonable to expect kids to clear up a family dining table strewn with the debris of painting they're finished with before throwing the contents of the dressing-up box all over the sitting room floor, for example.

If you do genuinely love each other then you should both want to understand the other's POV and work together to find a mode of family life that makes everyone happier.

Your DH’s behaviour is totally unacceptable. He is basing his expectations on his mother, who spent hours doing housework every day, and somehow expecting the same standards when you both work full time. Then he thinks it’s ok to shout and make everyone unhappy about this issue.

I can see your problem, OP. He sounds awful but it’s not really serious enough to be divorce material if everything else is ok. Could you try joint counselling or a marriage course? Not to determine who is ‘right’ as such, but to find ways of dealing with the issue and improving your communication.

Does he realise how unhappy you are about this?

Would you maybe consider some counselling OP? Would he be up for that? Just then that gives you the opportunity to talk freely in a safe space, and may give you the benefit of an outside perspective (so it’s not always you telling him he is ‘wrong’).

Abusers bank on things being acceptable for you 90% of the time or they couldn't operate.

Please have a listen to this, OP, it's an eye-opener:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09wpmvm#play

Feeling worried when your spouse is on their way home from work, wondering what they will find to have a go about next is emotional abuse.

Children not being able to get a bit of mud on the floor, and then a row over which hoover should be used is, for me, the point at which a normal desire to live in a clean house moves into something else.

My DH used to get a bit annoyed over the kids toys being out. In his mind they were in the same category as clutter/mess/dirt. I told him that in ten years time, when he looks back on their toddler years, his memory won't be that the house was dirty. It would be of our kids playing with toys, being kids. Once I had pointed out that there are different types of "mess" he realised it was his expectations that needed to change, rather than the toys being on the rug for the afternoon.

What I am saying is, if your DH walked in and there are shoes lying in the middle of the hallway/coats dropped where they were taken off/mud on the floor, he can say, right this place needs a tidy, right kids lets get those coats put away, lets get this floor cleaned. He doesn't need to start yelling over messy shoes under the stairs/which hoover to use. His reaction to the mess is disproportionate and it is his attitude that needs to change.

If you can point that out, he can listen and take it in and change how he acts then you have something worth saving.

If that is not possible, then it is less about the actual mess and more about control. And I would worry that that 10% will only continue to grow.

The old question is how much actual dogshit would you tolerate in your egg and cress sandwich. 10%? 2%?

Besides, it sounds as though that 10% leaks into the 90% if you're constantly having to keep it in mind (must tidy that up before DH gets home, won't get the paints out in case DH shouts).

I also can't tell from your post what contribution DH makes to keeping the house clean and tidy. Say your comfort level is a Tidy Level Four and his is a Tidy Level Six - it would be unreasonable for him to expect you to do Six levels of tidy and him do zero, but perhaps more reasonable for him to expect you to keep it to at least Four and then he does the two levels to get it up to his standards. Do you see what I mean?

Does he speak to people at work like this?
What are you teaching your children?
Has he seen the doctor, a psychologist?

But it's not OK 90% of the time is it - you're feeling anxious about a possible bad reaction from him ALL of the time.
I think he sounds very stressed and is taking it out on everyone at home because he cannot behave like that at work.
Can you sit down and talk to him when he isn't tired and stressed to see if you can find a solution to the problem? He shouldn't be shouting at anyone about muddy boots. I wouldn't like the children bringing the muddy boots into the house either but there are ways of talking to them about it in a manner appropriate for their age.

If he wants to have a cleaner, more tidy house, he will have to clean and keep it at his standards.
You’ve made an effort and a good one at that.
What isn’t acceptable is for you to walk in eggshell all the time or for him to throw stuff around in anger.
If he has an issue with the dcs coming I with muddy boots, then also up to him to parent them so they do so. At the moment he is just a;aggressive bully towards them!

So my question would be, how much cleaning does he do?
How much parenting does he do?
And how much effort does he put at keeping up with his own standards?

I suspect little but that he somehow still expects perfection....

I don't know if you are all jumping the gun abit on the emotional abuse claims. I mean if this is the only issue the husband gets like this over maybe he has an issue around this like OCD or something?

OP have you two ever sat down and had a talk about it (besides in the heat of the moment)? Maybe he needs to see someone to address why he gets so upset about this one thing? (if this is literally the only thing that makes him behave that way)

I grew up in a household like this with one parent exploding periodically about “the state of the house” (definition, shoes left by the door when I’ve only popped in the house for 10 minutes) and the other parent constantly pleading with us over very minor points “as you know what he’s like”.

As an adult I have distanced myself from both of them as I recognise it’s not a normal way to behave and have had to battle with myself to not treat other people this way. It’s hurtful and I regard both of them as equally culpable and my mother was complicit and never once stood up to us or tried to teach us that it is not okay to treat others or be treated like this.