If a marriage is ok 90% of the time........

[user1471556464]

Long time lurker never thought I would post - please be gentle, I can't work out who is right/wrong.
Have been with DH 10 years, have 2 children age 7 and 5. We both work long hours in the NHS and have an aupair to help with childcare. No family nearby. We have a cleaner for 3 hours a week.
DH is very houseproud, cannot stand mess, wants the house to be spotless at all times. I am very different, can tolerate mess, don't like doing housework, think hoovering once a week is adequate unless you can actually see bits on the floor. I knew what he was like before we had children.
This difference in standards leads to arguments and him shouting at me and the children. He thinks the children should tidy up after themselves, get one toy out at a time etc. I think that it is normal for kids to be untidy and while they should learn to tidy up, it is part of being a parent to have to clean and tidy up after kids to some extent.
We have both changed our standards a bit over the years, I am much better than I used to be at keeping the house tidy/clean and I do make an effort but I'm never going to spend hours doing housework/ wiping marks off walls that I can't even see!
So this weekend DH was working in the mornings. When I know he's on the way home I usually make sure the house is reasonably tidy and the chores have been done. I get stressed wondering if he's going to find something to criticise. 90% of the time it's fine. This weekend he started shouting as soon as he got in the door because the shoes under the stairs were untidy. Then he shouted at the kids because there was some craft stuff out on the table and they were playing with something else. I took the kids out for a walk. When we came back the kids took there muddy boots off in the hallway instead of outside the house so he yelled at them and threw the boots outside. He told the eldest to hoover the mud up which she did. I took over as there was still some on the floor and he shouted at me as I was using the handheld and I should have used the big hoover. At that point I flipped - I usually just keep quiet but I yelled that it was so much nicer when he was at work and I dreaded him coming home.
We haven't spoken since.
I realise what I've written makes him look like an arse. 90% of the time there is no problem but I'm always waiting for the next time. There's no point me busting a gut trying to keep the house absolutely spotless because 1. I will never live up to his standards however hard I try and 2. I've got better things to do with my time and I pay a cleaner to do the jobs I don't want to do.
From his perspective he wants to live in a spotless house and feels he spends all his time tidying up after everyone else. From my perspective you can't live in a showhouse when you work more than full time and have kids. I've shown him other people's houses that are a bit untidy and shown him that other people's cars are not pristine (our cars are spotless inside) and tell him that's how most people live - but he thinks he's right and everyone else is wrong. He was brought up in a house where his mother spent hours doing housework every day and was not allowed to ever be messy.
Sorry for the essay. Just to reiterate this is not a problem all the time but I don't know how to deal with it. I don't want to divorce over it, we have children together. Should I just put up with him shouting at everyone 10% of the time and say nothing to keep the peace? Will the kids ask me in 10 years time why I put up with it?
thanks in advance for any opinions. What do I do?

P.s. holly what on earth are you banging on about? This thread isn’t about living in filth.

But the OP's husband won't allow people to touch the walls of his house

I think that's a different pp's husband (unless there's been a NC fail).

Agree it's the shouting and mismatched expectations that are the problems, not the actual cleanliness levels.

That said, DH grew up in a house where leaving a magazine out while you go and fetch a drink is "messy". It gave him some really stupid ideas about how messy a house can be (to him, a magazine on a coffee table is as messy as wrappers all over the floor, so once you're leaving a magazine why bother picking up the wrappers?).

He should not have to clear up after everyone nor should he shout at everyone either. You shouldn't have to feel worried all the time. There must be a middle way that works for both of you. You need to sit down and BOTH compromise.

Compromise means you each have to move towards each others position. It sounds like you're the only one compromising at the moment.

I do think you need to have a conversation he needs to realise that you are not his mothers (who I bet was a sahm) and that kids are kids and you don’t want them to be anxious about things that In the grand scheme of things don’t matter. And I do hope your rant included the words ‘well you bloody well do it then it looks fine to me’

God, I'm glad I don't have to live with him. Our house is on the market at the moment and has to be immaculate at all times. Frankly it's doing my head in. Living in a show home must be dreadful. In any case there's a big divide between dirty and untidy. In normal times ours is never the former, frequently the latter.

It sounds abusive to me. Dreading your husband walking through the door is just awful and his behaviour is completely unacceptable. He clearly has issues and he could really do with some professional help in dealing with them.

The problem isn't the different standards of cleanliness but his reaction to his standards not being met.

Imagine how the atmosphere of the house would be different if he saw the craft things on the table - sighed tolerantly about his messy family, and politely reminded/asked the children to put things away.

They would do it. They might smilingly apologise for forgetting. They would try to remember to do it next time - because they love him and want to please him. (They would forget sometimes because they are human children not robots...)

He would understand that the mess was there because they were children and not because they were challenging him or trying to distress him.

Shouting didn't improve the situation for him . It was a loss of temper and he needs to address this reaction. He probably apologised to you all for his loss of self-control ? He needs to work on his temper and think about why he was so angry.

OR

if things are more serious, then it was a way of frightening the household into obeying him. He will have made this all your fault or all the children's fault.

If the second of these two - then you might need to address this by taking them and yourself away or having him leave. This is not a safe man to live with.

There is a vast difference between a bit of mud on the floor after a walk outdoors, that is then cleaned up (with the wrong hoover ) and "big skidders in the bowl, or cacky pants on the floor, or grotty tissues, or a bedroom full of manky mouldy dishes."

There is a bit of wild extrapolation going on there.

Would you maybe consider some counselling OP? Would he be up for that? Just then that gives you the opportunity to talk freely in a safe space, and may give you the benefit of an outside perspective (so it’s not always you telling him he is ‘wrong’).

This. Whether you call it emotional abuse or not it is not good for you and the kids. It's been going on for ages and with no change, IME deep rooted stuff is difficult to change alone but counselling can really help.

I think this is emotional abuse. You dread him coming home and God knows what it is doing to your poor little kids, because it will be affecting them too.

90% of the time there is no problem but I'm always waiting for the next time.

You are kidding yourself here. If you're always waiting for the next time, that means it's a problem 100% of the time.

And yes if you don't do something about this soon, your children will blame you further down the line for allowing their childhood to be so awful. A previous poster has already said what it was like growing up with a dad similar to your "D"H, and the damaging consequences.

You can't allow this behaviour to carry on. Your DH needs to either change his behaviour (some sort of therapy or counselling?) or you need to leave and remove your children from this toxic atmosphere.

If "emotional abuse" is a fair description of his behaviour, what is the phrase that describes the abuse he is experiencing from his family? I suspect he is suffering more from their behaviour than they are from his attempts to get them to change.

Why is it that you have to keep up to his standards?

Because otherwise he would be miserable all the time. Though he probably is anyway, the 10% he spends shouting is when he snaps.

Him not shouting is not a solution, that just means him suffering in silence. I mean, I agree that shouting shouldn't happen, but it shouldn't happen because there shouldn't be a rage-inducing problem, rather than because someone has mastered silent fury.

Him cleaning up is not the solution, who wants to spend their life cleaning up other peoples mess?

There's probably no solution to this, other than living apart.

I still don't really understand what emotional abuse is and I've had plenty of professionals try to tell me I've been a victim of it. It's insidious and controversial. All I know is that I ended up pretty fucked after tolerating my ex's repeated cheating while telling me I was the only person who understood him. I won't let him near me again, end of. It's a term that's sometimes overused and sometimes underused. Trust your own instincts.

Why is it that you have to keep up to his standards?

I agree it is wrong to have to keep to his standards. It is equally wrong that he should have to suffer hers. Only solution is to not live together.

I agree it is wrong to have to keep to his standards. It is equally wrong that he should have to suffer hers. Only solution is to not live together.

ffs

OP how about your DP lists the chores he thinks need doing on a small blackboard/reminder pad hanging in the kitchen?

You list them too obviously if you spot anything and then everyone checks it and gets on with it.

I can relate to this in a way. I’m like your DP and my DH sounds similar to you. My DH just doesn’t see things, I think it’s bizarre but he can genuinely walk into a room with laundry on the floor and not even notice. I’m a bit of a clean freak but neither of us have the time to waste on frantically cleaning the house every time somethings out of place.

It created a fair few arguments between us because I’d come home tired and stressed, see the mess and would direct all of my stress into wanting it cleaned. Probably a control thing, I don’t know. So I’d either do it myself and play the martyr or have a go at DH to do it.

We reached a compromise when DH explained he genuinely didn’t notice things out of place but was more than happy to clean them if it saved me stress. His problem stemmed from how I spoke to him, like a mother to her naughty child. So the agreement was I’d list the jobs on a board, he’d check it and get stuff done that he would otherwise not notice.

It’s working so far.

If "emotional abuse" is a fair description of his behaviour, what is the phrase that describes the abuse he is experiencing from his family?

Wtf?

I am literally aghast at some of these responses - suggesting OP changes her ways to accommodate this abusove behaviour is really not helping anyone, other than the abuser. Some responses have massively extrapolated what the OP have said - @HollyBayTree I’m looking at you - to assume she is living in filth, which she isn’t. But I cannot say this loudly enough - even if she was, that does not excuse her DH’s behaviour

OP, you should never fear your partner coming home that is horrible.

The only thing wrong here is your husband’s reaction. It is never ok to make your loved ones afraid and he is doing it on a frequent basis. What a horrible atmosphere for the children to be growing up in :-(

You need to speak to your DP - tell him his reaction is unacceptable and he either gets help for his anger issues or you and the kids will be leaving him as you don’t want the children developing anxiety. It is perfectly within his power to react to things he doesn’t like calmly and rationally, by asking the children to tidy up after themselves and training them to do so properly. Given he has ridiculously high standards, he should also be doing extra cleaning up himself or hiring a cleaner daily.

What he should not be doing is losing his temper, shouting and making his family live in fear. He’s being a bully.

In our house if one of us behaved like that, the other would say things like

"Don't talk to me like that!"

"Children, stay where you are, Daddy doesn't understand the situation. I will explain. DH let's talk in the other room."

"I told the children it was OK to leave that until later. They've done nothing wrong. It will stay until later because I already made that decision. Do not undermine me like that."

I think you can help him change how he behaves around the kids. My DH is a bit stressy about mess and i am really laid back. I told him the kids will remember his as shouty and mean and is that what he wants. It has taken a while for him to chill out about stuff but he is really trying to. It used to bother me a lot but now we laugh at him if he gets super stressed. I think we got to a more balanced atmosphere with a combo of me showing him how to behave around kids and me telling him when he is being a twat. We've had calm chats about it too, i know he gets really stressed if the place is messy but he knows he has to have realistic expectations. So we have cleaner twice a week but with 3 kids the place will at times be messy.
I don't think it's worth throwing a marriage away over this. You can get through it by addressing it calmly. Good luck x

OP, I think your dh is my dh, except he doesn't work in the NHS.

With hindsight, this is what I wish I had done:

• Allow him to train the kids more in tidying up eg. making their beds, putting stuff away when they finished with it. I was always the 'kids are kids' (and I am a messy person, I don't even see it most of the time). Now they are older, I do wish they had learnt better, and I had allowed dh to teach them. However, the emphasis here is on TEACH not shout or make ridiculous demands eg. which hoover to use.

• Put firmer boundaries in place on his shouting/ intolerance of others' needs/ likes/ characters. He doesn't shout all the time, but I do always feel a bit stressed about what his reaction will be when he comes in. I wish we could have separated the shouting/ demands out from his need to have a clean space.

• He had managed his reactions better eg. go straight into a designated clean room after work and calm down, get his head into the right space to be kind, tolerant, patient etc. Sometimes after a bad day, anything can set people off.

One idea is to have a space which is his personal clean space and you guys don't mess it up eg. bedroom/ study/ dining room and that is always immaculate ie. if you use it, you leave it as found.

However, on his side, he needs to own his overreactions and recognise that he is taking out his stressful job on his family. If he can't own this, there is NO moving forward.

OP, you should never fear your partner coming home sad that is horrible.

I do agree with this though, that’s no way to live.

TatianaLarina The 5 year old is emotionally abusing him

Op

I’m pleased you stood up to your bullying husband.

His behaviour is intimidating and his expectations upon your poor children are ridiculous.

Children are messy and rightly so. I wonder if you find yourself getting vexed with them too?

You need to make it clear that you will no longer be walking on egg shells and nor will your children.

Tell him it is his behaviour that needs readjustment not yours

He sounds a bit OCD regarding the cleaning so I guess that may make him anxious and grumpy. Does he shout at you all for other things or is it just the cleaning? With kids around, the house will never be spotless and a house is to be lived in. If it is hard to discuss with him, write him a letter about how it affects you all . You shouldn't have to be anxious waiting for him to come home to find a bit of dirt somewhere . If it continues, he should get help. You shouldn't have go put up with this