If a marriage is ok 90% of the time........

[user1471556464]

Long time lurker never thought I would post - please be gentle, I can't work out who is right/wrong.
Have been with DH 10 years, have 2 children age 7 and 5. We both work long hours in the NHS and have an aupair to help with childcare. No family nearby. We have a cleaner for 3 hours a week.
DH is very houseproud, cannot stand mess, wants the house to be spotless at all times. I am very different, can tolerate mess, don't like doing housework, think hoovering once a week is adequate unless you can actually see bits on the floor. I knew what he was like before we had children.
This difference in standards leads to arguments and him shouting at me and the children. He thinks the children should tidy up after themselves, get one toy out at a time etc. I think that it is normal for kids to be untidy and while they should learn to tidy up, it is part of being a parent to have to clean and tidy up after kids to some extent.
We have both changed our standards a bit over the years, I am much better than I used to be at keeping the house tidy/clean and I do make an effort but I'm never going to spend hours doing housework/ wiping marks off walls that I can't even see!
So this weekend DH was working in the mornings. When I know he's on the way home I usually make sure the house is reasonably tidy and the chores have been done. I get stressed wondering if he's going to find something to criticise. 90% of the time it's fine. This weekend he started shouting as soon as he got in the door because the shoes under the stairs were untidy. Then he shouted at the kids because there was some craft stuff out on the table and they were playing with something else. I took the kids out for a walk. When we came back the kids took there muddy boots off in the hallway instead of outside the house so he yelled at them and threw the boots outside. He told the eldest to hoover the mud up which she did. I took over as there was still some on the floor and he shouted at me as I was using the handheld and I should have used the big hoover. At that point I flipped - I usually just keep quiet but I yelled that it was so much nicer when he was at work and I dreaded him coming home.
We haven't spoken since.
I realise what I've written makes him look like an arse. 90% of the time there is no problem but I'm always waiting for the next time. There's no point me busting a gut trying to keep the house absolutely spotless because 1. I will never live up to his standards however hard I try and 2. I've got better things to do with my time and I pay a cleaner to do the jobs I don't want to do.
From his perspective he wants to live in a spotless house and feels he spends all his time tidying up after everyone else. From my perspective you can't live in a showhouse when you work more than full time and have kids. I've shown him other people's houses that are a bit untidy and shown him that other people's cars are not pristine (our cars are spotless inside) and tell him that's how most people live - but he thinks he's right and everyone else is wrong. He was brought up in a house where his mother spent hours doing housework every day and was not allowed to ever be messy.
Sorry for the essay. Just to reiterate this is not a problem all the time but I don't know how to deal with it. I don't want to divorce over it, we have children together. Should I just put up with him shouting at everyone 10% of the time and say nothing to keep the peace? Will the kids ask me in 10 years time why I put up with it?
thanks in advance for any opinions. What do I do?

but I don't want to live like this
That’s the important bit.
Whether you are or he is ‘right’ re the cleanliness of the house doesn’t matter.
The issue here is that it’s creating an environment that YOU don’t like and is negatively affecting you (and probably the dcs).

You have already compromised by making an effort compare to your own standards.
What has he compromised on? Not a lot from what you are saying.

Please don’t settle for a situation that clearly doesn’t work for you.

It doesn't have to be deliberate or intentional to be emotional abuse.

Sorry to say this, but this is abuse. The key thing for me is your saying you anticipate and dread his reaction to there being mess in the house.

It doesn't matter if he's fine 90% of the time. Feeling scared of his reaction 10% of the time is 10% too much.

Everyone has differences in their values and expectations and some friction is inevitable in a marriage. But worrying that he is going to shout at you and the children over this is not OK.

Maybe try counselling if you're not convinced of this -- and it doesn't sound as if you are. But you need above all to be clear that this is not acceptable. There is absolutely no excuse for him shouting at and humiliating you or your children over cleanliness. None at all. If he doesn't move heaven and earth to change this you need to prepare yourself to draw a line and leave him.

Don't spend the rest of your life dreading your ability to live up to someone else's expectations.

Trinity having OCD or anything like this doesn’t allow you to create such an atmosphere that your partner is walking in eggshell.
As soon as you are in a situation where someone walks on eggshells, waiting for the next outbursts, cleaning up just in case it’s not good enough etc..., then you are in emotionally abusive territory (or him being an utter twat)

OP the way he is controlling you and keeping tabs on you is BECAUSE he doesn’t explode each time he is back home. Because that way you never know why or when he will explode.
It’s the not knowing what is going to set him off that is the issue there.

To OP

Get him to pay for a cleaner 7 days per week if he is a fuss pot about cleanliness

I agree with Pp in the does he act like this at work. If he screams and shouts at work when things aren't perfect then it might be more deep seated a problem but if it's only at home then he is more than capable of controlling it and he needs to reflect on that.

It doesn't sound great for the kids. My DH is cleaner than I am, it pisses him off but what he says is "love, could you please try to put your shoes away when you come in". That's how you deal with it, not the way your DH is doing it.

Trinity having OCD or anything like this doesn’t allow you to create such an atmosphere that your partner is walking in eggshell.
As soon as you are in a situation where someone walks on eggshells, waiting for the next outbursts, cleaning up just in case it’s not good enough etc..., then you are in emotionally abusive territory (or him being an utter twat)

I understand that, i wasn't saying it was ok, I was just saying that maybe he needs to tackle this issue and realise that he has an unhealthy relationship/association/reactions to cleaning. If it is just that (and he's not controlling or doesn't get upset about anything else) isn't it worth trying to help him sort himself out with this issue rather than just LTB or whatever, the OP sounds like she wants a solution rather than just leave her marriage tbf

He's a cock. Its your house too. I'd have told him to shove his standards up his arse a long time ago. Sorry that's not very helpful.

People shouldnt have to live in filth. Sorry mut tramping muddy boots through is just plain disrespectful of your environment, and hoovering once a week is filthy slovenly standards of housekeeping. Anf that'll just be the tip of the cieberg.

Whilst I agree he has over reacted, I'd be pretty pissed off if I worked, had an au pair, had a cleaner and a partner who should also be pulling their weight and still the hosue looked like a shit tip.

But of course, shooting and losing his rag is ridiculous. Does he also do his share of chores? becaue if I'd spent 2 hours cleaning the kitchen and I turned round and found a load of 'messy play' and a sink full of dishes, I'd lose my proverbial shit too.

OP, sending you a hug. As you say, you both work long hours, so even if you were a tidier person, it's a balance of work hours, family commitments and enjoying life, not constantly looking around for the next job that has to be done to someone else's standards.

The kids do need to learn to tidy up after themselves to some extent, but they are only young and should be having fun and feel happy and comfortable.

It's obviously something that's important to him. Do you feel comfortable about having a chat with him, tell him it's getting you down and it must be affecting him, so you'd like to reach a compromise? If you aren't able to talk to him, or he can't talk calmly, there's more to this can someone wanting a spotless house.

Hoovering the house once a week is absolutely fine, OP

Holly - life is too short to lose ones shit over kids mess, and deeply unpleasant

You say you have both changed your standards but also say he wants the house spotless - that doesn't sound like he has changed at all, it sounds like you have adapted to keep him happy.

Don't let this carry on. Your children will be very aware of the atmosphere and what is "10%" worry for you will be much magnified for them.

@HollyBayTree how many times the OP does or does not hoover the house is irrelevant - her DH’s reaction is disproportionate to say the least. The fact that you think it’s acceptable to ‘lose your shit’ over mess left from children playing makes me

The cleaning is of less importance than the shouting and verbal abuse.

There’s no justification for that.

Often very tidy parents have their children well trained. But rather than training your kids to put things away carefully, he just shouts at them when they don’t. Which doesn’t appear to be making them more tidy.

He could have quietly made them clear up the shoes, clear up the craft mess and their own muddy footprints. He doesn’t have to yell.

Hi,

I started a thread that was a bit similar a while back.

Our problem was that DH had "cornered the market" in being "the responsible tidy one" and I was giving up more and more.

What showed it wasn't just my fault was that he, oddly, didn't respect the things I do well (such as not shoving stuff into random cupboards but taking care to find a place for everything).

It came to a boil over his books. Even though I'm the one with the degree in Eng. lit, I became the "book hater"....

Basically, we had each got stuck in fixed roles.

we're much better now. I got the Marie Kondo book which is great. I emptied out most of the house which reduced confict a lot. It meant I was able to do more but on my own terms.

But there are still some things. For instance, he really cares about asking people not to touch the walls of the house for fear of leaving marks. I don't care if the walls accumulate marks. I tend to dismiss his remarks about that. similarly, I took the front off the small shed to make it more like a summer house, but he still dumps stuff in it to make it back into a shed. (in fact, we need to talk about this right now....)

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I think you need to reclaim a role and get him to respect your contribution.

This way - all he will achieve is making the children anxious.

I wouldn't want to live like that either. Dreading his return. Being shouted at ffs. And I'd be telling him that.

You really need to sit down and discuss this calmly. By the way I only hoover once a week. My neighbour hoovers at least once a day. Standards are so different. But I wouldn't expect to be walking on eggshells and shouted at.

For instance, he really cares about asking people not to touch the walls of the house for fear of leaving marks

Bloody hell, that's extreme

I think if you are in fear and anxious about his reaction coming home, dreading his anger and tidying up so as not to set him off, this is emotional abuse. Children are messy. Homes are chaotic at some points. Does he make any attempt to compromise?

I prefer my children to live in clean surroundings and be respectful of myself, and their environment - thats a fine line between playing and being utterly inconsiderate for your fellow house dwellers, leaving crap and filth all over the floor. Because of course if life is too short to clean up, the none of you would mind big skidders in the bowl, or cacky pants on the floor, or grotty tissues, or a bedroom full of manky mouldy dishes - all of which the collective MN wrath would be heaped upon a poor old female doing the house work and being utterly disrespected by her male partner/offspring. Of which there are plenty of threads.

Competitive filth isn’t an aspirational challenge

"Bloody hell, that's extreme"

I think so. But it's probably a bit unkind that I also say so....

He is controlling OP. His shouting is awful and unnecessary. The whole household lives in fear of his outbursts. 10% nastiness is more than enough to keep everybody on their toes. Is he like this at work? No. Why is it that you have to keep up to his standards? Who decided that? Did you? No you did not. He thinks that you should, because ultimately he believes he is, and should be, ‘in charge’. He’s not your boss, but he thinks he is.

What happens if you stand up to him? More shouting and you’re the problem. Your kids are only 7 and 5 - they’re babies and I bet they’re shit-scared of him. You are scared of him - I would be. Here is a man who comes home and you don’t know if he’s going to be nice or nasty...and everyone’s scurrying round trying to make sure that there’s nothing likely to set him off. This man is setting the climate in your home and that climate is fear and dread.

You may feel that I am overstating this, but his behaviour is totally unacceptable. And he’s groomed you to a point where you’re not sure what is acceptable or not. You have been groomed my dear, by his temper. He blames you for his behaviour I am sure...along the lines of, well if you and /or kids cleared up then I wouldn’t be like this’ No, No, No -wrong answer. You are NOT to blame for the way he behaves. He is choosing to bully you and your children. He doesn’t behave like this at work when he wants something done does he? You are being emotionally blackmailed in order to shield your children from his horrible anger. He is turning what should be a lovely happy home into a zone of fear. This either stops because he stops OR because he leaves.

At the very least he needs an ultimatum from you.

Holly this is nothing to do with "competitive filth" -- you're missing the point.

The OP is frightened of her husband's reaction if the house isn't clean enough. No-one should ever be frightened of their spouse. Period.

No one wants to live in a shit tip. But the OP's husband won't allow people to touch the walls of his house and kicks off when his small children accidentally bring mud into the house. That's normal or healthy and it certainly does not warrant him shouting at his wife and children. I can't see what's controversial about that.

not normal or healthy