If a marriage is ok 90% of the time........

[user1471556464]

Long time lurker never thought I would post - please be gentle, I can't work out who is right/wrong.
Have been with DH 10 years, have 2 children age 7 and 5. We both work long hours in the NHS and have an aupair to help with childcare. No family nearby. We have a cleaner for 3 hours a week.
DH is very houseproud, cannot stand mess, wants the house to be spotless at all times. I am very different, can tolerate mess, don't like doing housework, think hoovering once a week is adequate unless you can actually see bits on the floor. I knew what he was like before we had children.
This difference in standards leads to arguments and him shouting at me and the children. He thinks the children should tidy up after themselves, get one toy out at a time etc. I think that it is normal for kids to be untidy and while they should learn to tidy up, it is part of being a parent to have to clean and tidy up after kids to some extent.
We have both changed our standards a bit over the years, I am much better than I used to be at keeping the house tidy/clean and I do make an effort but I'm never going to spend hours doing housework/ wiping marks off walls that I can't even see!
So this weekend DH was working in the mornings. When I know he's on the way home I usually make sure the house is reasonably tidy and the chores have been done. I get stressed wondering if he's going to find something to criticise. 90% of the time it's fine. This weekend he started shouting as soon as he got in the door because the shoes under the stairs were untidy. Then he shouted at the kids because there was some craft stuff out on the table and they were playing with something else. I took the kids out for a walk. When we came back the kids took there muddy boots off in the hallway instead of outside the house so he yelled at them and threw the boots outside. He told the eldest to hoover the mud up which she did. I took over as there was still some on the floor and he shouted at me as I was using the handheld and I should have used the big hoover. At that point I flipped - I usually just keep quiet but I yelled that it was so much nicer when he was at work and I dreaded him coming home.
We haven't spoken since.
I realise what I've written makes him look like an arse. 90% of the time there is no problem but I'm always waiting for the next time. There's no point me busting a gut trying to keep the house absolutely spotless because 1. I will never live up to his standards however hard I try and 2. I've got better things to do with my time and I pay a cleaner to do the jobs I don't want to do.
From his perspective he wants to live in a spotless house and feels he spends all his time tidying up after everyone else. From my perspective you can't live in a showhouse when you work more than full time and have kids. I've shown him other people's houses that are a bit untidy and shown him that other people's cars are not pristine (our cars are spotless inside) and tell him that's how most people live - but he thinks he's right and everyone else is wrong. He was brought up in a house where his mother spent hours doing housework every day and was not allowed to ever be messy.
Sorry for the essay. Just to reiterate this is not a problem all the time but I don't know how to deal with it. I don't want to divorce over it, we have children together. Should I just put up with him shouting at everyone 10% of the time and say nothing to keep the peace? Will the kids ask me in 10 years time why I put up with it?
thanks in advance for any opinions. What do I do?

Does he have tight control at work, OP? That he finds very difficult to let go of when he comes home?

My DM needed control in all aspects of her life, so would try to control us kids. She would see 'mess' where we saw a pair of shoes or a magazine or an empty cup, and get very anxious about the place being untidy.

Your DH sounds very, very stressed. And he's passing his stress on to you (by making you feel stressed when he comes home in case things aren't right). I think he needs some kind of therapy to get over this need to control things to such an extent, before he infects the kids with his anxiety.

When he came in and saw the craft stuff out his response should have been - 'great kids, what have you been making?'! Instead of going off on one. You and your dh should watch a movie called 'regarding Henry'. Maybe he'll get the point then.

OP, is this really how you want o spend your one and only precious life? Really? Think long and hard.

I agree with MerryMarigold and Kalifornia. I am teaching my children to clear up after themselves regularly and properly and to notice mess. I am also trying to control the stress when I am tired and assaulted by mess.

I have had many aupairs work for me with differing levels of tidiness. I think it is a failing of their parents if they let their offspring live like slobs and not know how to clean properly and appreciate the beauty and calm of a tidy and well-organised house. It does not take much. I work ft. It can be done.

But 5 and 7 are too young to start cleaning. Mine only because realistically trainable after 11.

Tell him you will clean to your standards and if he wants it done more he can do it himself or pay someone to do it.

He can't force you to change. I am the same as you, i like it to be tidy but can live with mess. My partner always wants me doing more. But i just tell him it's his issue.

I yelled that it was so much nicer when he was at work and I dreaded him coming home.

As a child my father was a clean freak (and generally a bit of a misery about noise of other things that are part and parcel with having kids). I used to prefer it when he wasn't there and wouldn't have cared as a child if they divorced.

I have a clear memory of when I was maybe 8 years old and had really thoroughly tidied my room to please him and all he did was find a couple miniscule bits on the carpet. After that I thought fuck this, and never bothered again.

Until pretty recently I was actually very messy as an adult and my sister still is and is even worse.

Ask your dh whether (a) he would like his children to actually prefer it if he didn't live there and (b) whether he wants his children to do end the rest of their lives rebelling against his anal retentiveness.

But 5 and 7 are too young to start cleaning. Mine only because realistically trainable after 11

They aren't too young to start imo but they are too young to do it all by themselves and to a high standard. I think at that age they should definitely be learning to pick up after themselves, just so they get in the habit of doing it but I wouldn't expect it to be done properly

But 5 and 7 are too young to start cleaning. Mine only because realistically trainable after 11.

So relieved to hear this - have 3 DC of 6 and under, and really struggle to get them to tidy up! Am thrilled that I have finally managed to get them to put shoes on shoe rack, and hang coats up! I would never shout/scream at them for their messiness though - I want them to have a happy childhood above all else.

People are conflating two different points here.

1. the question about cleanliness and what level of mess is acceptable, and whether children should be expected to participate in keeping the home clean.

2. the question of emotional abuse.

On the first, this is down to individual negotiation. People have different standards here and in a family there has to be some compromise on both sides. Yes its intolerable to be pulling all the weight on the home front and yes children should be taught that they have a role to play in keeping things clean and tidy. Within reason.

But by far the most material point here is that the OP is living in fear of her husband and his reactions. This is abuse and there is simply no justification for his shouting at his family because they are failing to meet his exact cleanness specifications. It wouldn't even be justified if she was cheating or behaving in far worse ways than this. Let alone because her kids are occasionally treading a bit of mud into the hall.

I'm really quite staggered that people can't see this...

Thank you for all the responses I appreciate it. I can't discuss this with friends as they mostly know him and it would feel disrespectful.
We both have stressful jobs, I do think his behaviour is worse when stressed at work and he's recently taken on extra work which isn't helping. Of course he wouldn't act like this at work he wouldn't get away with it!
It was another poster who said about the walls - but my DH is exactly the same! Tells the kids off if they touch the walls, gets annoyed with the cleaners for leaving marks on the walls with the hoover cord, spends time painting over marks that I honestly wouldn't even notice!
We don't live in a shitpit. It's the cleanest tidiest house I've ever seen- mainly because DH spends a fair bit of time keeping it that way. If DH wasn't here it wouldn't be quite to this standard but it would still be clean to most people's standards and tidyish at the end of the day.
I just need to reiterate - it's just this issue, some of the time. He has a million good points or I wouldn't be with him. And I knew we had different standards when we met.
Thanks for all the responses I will be having a think about how to move forward.

And I knew we had different standards when we met.

He also knew about the different standards, so that point is cancelled out, no? Why is the compromise only expected in one direction?

Maybe we need a new thread about men who don't like people touching walls.....

good luck OP.

I would put money on him not being fine 90% of the time. I bet it is much closer to 50%.
He is emotionally abusive and you spend all your time waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Been there done that. It was hell

The issue IMO is the shouting. I find mess stressful but I manage to ask nicely (at least the first time...) and if I say to DH "this place is a mess" I know at some point during that day he'll make a concerted effort. Your DH needs to differentiate between bad behaviour and natural childishness and stop going off on one about the latter. I also try to let my kids keep toys out in their rooms for longer although I like the living room to be tidied at the end of the day.

I think he needs stress management and anger management because these outbursts will be affecting the children.

And I knew we had different standards when we met.
And so did he.
So he did marry you and had kids with you KNOWING your standards were lower.
Does that mean he has to accept your standards the same you seem to imply you have to accept his outbursts and his very high standards because you knew about it before hand??

Im sure that stress at work is making things worse.
And that two young children is also harder re tidying.
Thatsbstill jot a reason for y U to end up walking in eggshell.

Btw his standards are too high and impossible to manage with family life.
Just think about your dcs are learning there. House has to be perfect. Girls tidy up and clean. It’s ok for daddy to shout but if mummy stands up to him, then you have an atmosphere that goes on and on. And it’s also ok for daddy not refuse to speak to mummy and stonewall her.

It’s not just his attitude to cleaning that is an issue. It’s his whole attitude and answer to the situation.

Sounds like emotional abuse to me. Absolutely.

You are on eggshells and worrying about whether he will kick off when he gets in. You can never be good enough. Most of all you can't relax in your own home. definition of abuse in my book.

So he knew that you were not as clean and tidy as him yet he chose to move in with you.

And he chose to have children knowning that they make a mess and mostly don’t clean up after themselves ( at least not for years and usually only with prompting ).

And he chose to work full time while having two children.

And yet his reaction to the logical consequence of his own choices is NOTVto compromise.

Or clean up more himself.
Or get therapy to deal with his cleanliness issues.

Its to yell at everyone else to do it. So much so that you and the kids dread him coming home.

Not reasonable .

It's not ok 90% of the time though, is it? You are on tenterhooks the whole time, waiting for the shouting to start again.

Does he shout at his friends or colleagues at work? No, didn't think so. So why does he think it is ok to shout at his nearest and dearest then? He has no right to treat you and the children like this.

Oh I forgot - he also chose to have a cleaner for only three hours a week.

He's fastidious and you're not. You sound normal btw. If you don't think it's abuse, and it sounds like he might be mortified with thinking you guys dread his reappearance, then I'd say find a way to communicate to him how it makes you feel and he can hopefully work on calming it down.

On the plus side your kids might find a nice balance between the 2 of your traits rather than being extreme themselves.

Omg do you know my husband?! It’s awful living with someone like this. He even says our children (3 and 4) are the messiest children he’s ever seen and I completely disagree. People like that need to live by themselves. I’ve told my husband lots of times now if you don’t like it you know what to do. I’m not going to kill myself cleaning the house which is a losing battle with 2 young kids in the house.

Thanks tricky.
I could increase the cleaner to twice a week and see if that improves things.

Yes, try that.