To put dd's names down for Scouts - DH thinks they are a "psuedo militaristic organisation that pledges allegiance to the monarchy and reinforces class divisions."

[morningpaper]

Well I thought that the Brownies and Scouts were okay but DH has objected that I have put their names down because they are "psuedo militaristic organisations that pledges allegiance to the monarchy and reinforces class divisions."

I told him they are probably full of working class Muslim eco-warrier children but he says no.

AIBU?

I still have a problem with it, sorry. Try reading those Scout policies back and substitute "Jew" for "atheist". Would it really be OK to say, effectively "Oh, well, it's just paying lip service really. No one will mind so long as you don't mention being Jewish, and it's not likely to come up in casual conversation"? Or would it be seen as fundamentally objectionable?

As an atheist I don't want to be involved (or have DS involved) with an organisation that has a "no atheists" policy, even if it's not rigorously enforced, just as if I were Jewish I wouldn't want to be involved with an organisation that had a "no Jews" policy, even if that weren't rigorously enforced. Others will have different views.

There are several non Christian children in my DSs Beaver and scout group.

DP says try woodcraft.

I know there are non-Christians. The Scout Association is beautifully, wonderfully, hug-tastically accepting of people from all sorts of faiths, just not of those with none.

And as I think I've said three times already, we shall be trying woodcraft.

I'm just trying to explain why I, personally, have problems with the Scout Association policies and why for me, personally, the fact that those policies don't make a huge amount of practical difference isn't enough to let me disregard their existence.

Worldwide there are 28 million scouts in 217 countries.

There are over 530,000 young people in scouts in the U.K alone, supported by 100,00 voluntary adults.

The aim of scouting is to promote the development of young people in achieving their full physical, intellectual, social and spiritual potentials as individuals, as responsible citizins and as members of their local, national and international communities.

Scouting believes the world is a better place when people are;

are trustworthy, self-controlled and self confident.

have self respect and respect for others.

work together to serve other people and to improve society.

show responsibility towards the natural world and proper respect for possessions and property.

have an active religious faith.

And this is so bad, how exactly???

Makealist, it's all fine unless you happen to not have an active religious faith. As Lemonaid points out.

I wouldn't have stopped my dds going, they are happy to produce a religious faith when required (to please Granny, or their teachers) and be atheists when that seems appropriate (at home). But it's nice that at Woodcraft I can be involved too, as Lemonaid says, the Scout and Guide movement wouldn't want me (despite my impeccable keen guiding past).

can we try and keep guiding and scouting separate?
SCOUTING does appear to have sacked people in the past for being athiest
but
noone seems to have any record of GUIDING doing the same and there are a couple of people on here who do guiding and are agnostic and have had no problems

I'm a Guide leader - may be its our group but we are very relaxed about the whole god thing and though they make the promise really only interpret as being open minded to religion and being able to explore aspects of faith - perhaps thats just the way we've decided to do things. Any girl who dosen't feel she can make the promise is still welcome to be part of the unit and take part in all our activities. I joined as a girl 25+ years ago I have to say the first group wasn't for me - rather old fashioned - then I found a lovely one with a rather (for the time) trendy leader - it was brilliant, loved every minute, did the whole Queens Guide thing - long since forgotton most of the skills I learnt but the confidence it gave me to achieve something had a big impact on my life. I'd say if your kids are keen - let them try it and see - Guiding and Scouting are wonderful for offering real life skills (and I don't just mean how to light a fire/iron a shirt!! - in our unit we haven't ironed any shirts for many years!!!). On another note I suspect Scouts are the same but we all have/are undergoing CRB checks.

I do have to say that my mothers ex-partner, a horrible man, DID become a scout leader for reasons other than his allegiance to the monarchy I'm sure, and he was suspended after a while...

Blu - "And, given the apparant identifucation of B-P as a repressed homosexual, you could wonder what he menat by urging his troops to erve the Queen... "

Am reading this at work (lunchtime, honest!) - and couldn't let this comment pass - at least have to ask what you meant?

Morningpaper - sounds like Woodcraft folk is your best option. My 3 got to Beavers, Guides and Scouts - actually DD2 goes to both Scouts and Guides (!) - more exciting activities in Scouts (they gutted fish last night! couldn't skin rabbits because apparently you can't get unskinned rabbits anymore!!.) They all have a blast, run around with their friends and enjoy themselves doing lots of activities that they don't get the chance to at home (I buy my fish filleted! ). We don't pay much attention to the God and Queen bit - it's not overly emphasised, and no one's made to attend church parade (though sometimes the pleas from the leaders are a bit heartfelt!). But then DC's all go to a CofE primary - wonder if there's a cross-thread here - OK to "God bother" if it's your child's education, but not allowed for out-of-school activities!!!

My dd is lucky enough to have 2 inspired women guide leaders, they have fabulous outings to the theatre, the cinema, walks on the beach, barbecues in the country park, go camping, make stuff, do art, do cooking. All for £2 per week (Brownies was £1). Only when they go camping (for 3 days last time, this summer its a week) are there extra charges.

Brilliantly good value quality childcare

I have just dropped my dd2(10) at Cubs for the evening, this week it's a surprise what they will be doing, but next week they are Air Rifle Shooting! She loves climbing & canoeing as well.
My parents were Cub Scout Leaders, my father was a District Commissioner and attended the 1937 World Jamboree in Holland. I had to go through Brownies, Guides & Rangers as girls weren't allowed in Scouting then, otherwise I would have been in there with them. I became a Cub Scout Leader as soon as I was 18 & was a Pack leader until my eldest was born nearly 14 years ago, I then became District Cub Scout Leader & eventually Assistant District Commissioner for Cub Scouts for a few years. I then decided that I had done enough 'active' Scouting after approx 25 years and now am just a member of the appointments committee who interview prospective leaders. BTW Scouts not only use a CRB check but also have a further checking system in place that use newspaper reports etc. My dd's pack appealed for new leaders recently & I seriously considered going back but decided that I am too busy with other things now.

tut, many of you views seem very old fashioned...

im 17 and have always been in guiding, i also kayak and make greetings cards !whoo, no hitler/god influences there...

i am also a young leader for my local rainbows group, we have so much fun that when i miss the occasional evening the next week the tell that they missed me..

Although I was a girl guide and liked it, it didn't seem wholly appropriate in a contemporary setting for our daughter (although I know it has modernised itself in lots of respects since my day) We found the WOODCRAFT FOLK an excellent alternative. Boys and girls mixed and also a good mix of ages. Attention paid to the sort of small detail that was important to us (and daughter) such as choosing people for teams by liling 'em up randomly and alternating them for teams a and b, rather than the brutal stuff of my nightmares of children choosing their favourites. They met weekly at a local school, have a good website and did lots of camping/night hikes/holidays. They were set up as a non militaristic alternative to the Scout movement. Their aims are humanitarian and gentle; but it's not a 'soppy' organisation.It is also non demominational. Suited my daughter very well. She went knowing no one and was helped to fit in very quickly by the general inclusive ethos.

oops ! Sorry for repetition of suggestion that you try Woodies. Hadn't read whole thread. New to mumsnet. Please forgive ! xx (blush)

Scouts is great because it will take a stroppy 14 year old off your hands for a week for a reasonable fee

ah but in woodcraft folk you can send them off to camp for a week from the age of 6, even better

MEMsmum - that comment was made at a stage in the thread where we were all being v lighthearted, and laughing at MP's DH's somewhat sensationalist views on scouts...and lots of stuff about the old style of scouting. And it was a direct link to the link which someone posted to ian hislops article about scouting (in which he speaks strongly in favour of scouting), but talks about B-P's alleged repressed homosexuality. Some posters were v concerned about pledging allegiannce to the queen - I suggested it may not be a monarchist pledge. I do not believe it to be a homophobic comment...

Is that enough explanation?

Umm do we think some people are taking this a bit seriously? Dont shoot me but after all it is just games and camping for kids, learning independence and other fun stuff? Each to there own and all that. Ds has been to beavers cubs and scouts and has now transfered to scouts here in Dubai. What does he do? Camping night hikes, building fires, civic responsibility. Recently he has completed his cycling proficiency badge, been camping and sailing, filleted fish as mentioned earlier, made bread, raised money for the Darfour appeal, competed in camping competitons and basically made loads of friends and had a good time.
I'm obviously completly slack because I have never thought oooh this is a military organisation in disguise, or gosh ds is being brainwashed into the arms of god. As for leaders we have men and women, all of whom I would trust with ds life. Why? Because I have helped these people and taken part in different activities. additionally taught my son what to do when touched/approached inappropriately and I find this is relevant at school, scouts, football, swimming, rugby,sailing, youth club and playscheme etc. So whilst I'm not too sure of the figures for "pereverts" in scouting per 000 children I cant truely beleive it is any worse than any other organisation. So maybe we should concentrate on the benefits of each and every organisation rather than generally dissing scouts/cubs/beavers?
As a bad parent I shall now slink of into the depths......

Blu - thanks for clarification - I can be a bit slow at times, especially on a Friday afternoon! Didn't mean to offend - didn't think you could mean what I thought you might have (ifyswim)- probably a had to be there situation!

Great thread. Sorry MP- my DH agrees with your DH entirely... except he says that it doesn't re-enforce class divisions so much as it breeds a class of people for empire-building. Or something like that (tbh there is much more to his theory but i glazed over mid-rant).

The Woodcraft thang does have that certain whiff of naked drum-beating, but I would quite like it if it was called "The Woodies". (more fabulous would be a joint venture between the woodies and the beavers).

bugger- reinforce, not re-enforce. sorry, it's too late to think straight, let alone spell. gud nite

I was SO with your dh, Morningpaper! However, my dd insisted on being a Brownie, and is now a Sea Scout and ds is an extremely enthusiastic Beaver (am I alone in thinking that name could have been better chosen?) They have such a fab time, and even I have to admit that they spend very little time indeed propping up the Empire and opressing the masses (unless the masses constitute their parents!) I really is the cheapest way to burn off energy, learn about teamwork, learn to sail and canoe and be as free and independent as it is possible to be. I am a convert. But I do frisk them for right wing ideology, Christianity and monarchism as they come through the door......

I have only read the first two posts so apologies for not reading further but...I was both a guide and a scout and I never swear allegiace to the queen, but then... the one and only monarch we ever had was executed more than a century before I was born.

Regarding class divisions... apart from the fact that most scouts/guides came from not very afluent backgrounds (unless the groups were organised in private schools), I thought that with the uniform on we all looked and acted more or less the same.